Started my MS3X build this week, questions to follow - Page 4 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


MEGAsquirt A place to collectively sort out this megasquirt gizmo

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 06-20-2012, 03:02 PM   #61
Junior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 377
Total Cats: 0
Default Need help

I was a bit optimistic in my last post. All of the below was done when warmed up.

I wasn't happy not having full understanding/control over the idle. For example, why is my idle never reaching its target and why can't I get the PID to change the idle after burning the settings, requiring a restart to check? I understand it shouldn't be immediate but it should start to try to hunt for the values in the idle target curve.

I started over from the beginning to set all of my parameters, not just copying other car's settings. I used the idle valve test to find my open and closed %. I made sure that it was in warmup PWM mode and over run was turned off. I found the upper range that would begin to bring my idle down from 4300 rpm (72%) and then I found the lower range that would choke the engine and it would die (35% rpm dropped to 1350-ish).

I plugged these in and turned off all of the idle helpers, to try and set my Min duty for PID. I zeroed out my P,I,D terms and found that the bottom end value I was using for Min Duty PID before no longer works. The lowest I can set PID to is 34, any lower and it immediately dies upon starting. Unfortunately the rpm target value is 825 when warmed up, and I cant get it below 1400. I tried to adjust my PID values and they do not respond like they used to. I used to change my integral gain and it would settle the rpm down to 900, but I couldn't stop the oscillations of 100rpm.

I think that another idle function is taking over and not allowing the PID algorithm to take over. This would explain why the settings have no effect. Can anyone shed some light? I have read the tuning idle FAQ on mx5nutz. I have a pretty good understanding of what is going on, but not perfect. Should I leave all of the idle functions on while tuning the PID algorithm or should I leave them off and I need to turn another off?

Also, what is the best way to set startup settings? My cold starts are very hard and I would like to change them, but without a point of reference it is hard to just keep incrementally changing values. What scale should I change my cranking pulse settings? Like 1 ms or 3 ms? I have stock injectors if someone would like to pass their settings along.

I have attached what I have if anyone would like to help me out. I left them as they were when I was testing last night.

It's a US '99 with MS built as in this thread. Stock, except for IAT- no MAF, and an LC-1 WBO2.
Attached Thumbnails
Started my MS3X build this week, questions to follow-idle-settings.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: msq 2012-06-20_10.03.26.msq (172.8 KB, 234 views)
3rdCarMX5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2012, 03:08 PM   #62
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,904
Total Cats: 1,793
Default

did you do the pwm flyback mod to the expander board on the idle output?
Braineack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2012, 03:09 PM   #63
Junior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 377
Total Cats: 0
Default

Yes. That is the diode from 12v to Idle on the connector, right?
3rdCarMX5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2012, 03:11 PM   #64
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,904
Total Cats: 1,793
Default

yeah. What freqency are you using for the valve?

this behavoir youre exhibiting is really odd. but if you use idle test mode and brin git down past 35PWM%, can you get the idle below 1350RPM? What's the complete working range of the valve? and what rpm points?
Braineack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2012, 03:20 PM   #65
Boosting since 1984
iTrader: (1)
 
stefanst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Levittown
Posts: 1,198
Total Cats: 68
Default

Funky idle could mean timing is off. Check with timing light?
stefanst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2012, 04:32 PM   #66
Junior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 377
Total Cats: 0
Default

If I drop the idle test below 35, like 32, the engine will die like it ran out of air.

My method for testing was to start the car, pick the idle valve duty and turn on test. I would then check the rpm and adjust as needed.

I checked the timing and it was spot on, but I can check again. How does my spark map look?

When I am rolling from a stop I can drop the rpm to 900-1000 under load, and it doesn't sound like it is going to die.

Stock ecu runs the car fine. Solid idle at stock rpm.
3rdCarMX5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2012, 04:37 PM   #67
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,904
Total Cats: 1,793
Default

I dont understand your methodology.

you should be able to turn on test mode and run through the entire 0-100% pwm range, noting the rpms at the outer limits of the valve's range. if dropping to 32% suddenly causes the car to choke out, but 35% sits above 1000RPM, there's an issue.

you need to know your valve's range before you can even think of tuning PID.
Braineack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2012, 05:12 PM   #68
Junior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 377
Total Cats: 0
Default

Not my methodology, just what happened. I didn't expect it to die since the idle screw should be sending a small amount of air regardless of the valve.

So the upper range was set as in the first time the rpm changed, meaning the valve just started to close.

Without a point of reference, I could only use what the valve test value for the lower range, I didn't know that the idle should hit a low value and stabilize.

I will try to get the lower range functioning, I just don't know what could be killing the engine, even when warm. It must be a timing or fuel problem, not allowing the engine to keep running with less air.

Any thoughts based on the tuning file?
3rdCarMX5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2012, 02:09 AM   #69
Junior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 377
Total Cats: 0
Default Still need help

So I fixed two things, slow starting was caused by a battery starting to fail and my timing was off 10*. The two marks on a 99 crank pulley threw me off.

The idle valve test worked after fixing the timing, the min duty is 19%.

However, I can't get the idle to work. It is very spotty. If I adjust the I and D factors the car will die as the idle falls. This doesn't make sense if the load is stable and the car will run with the idle valve closed. The PID settings only control the opening of the idle valve. If I play with the settings and set I to 10.3 or less it will bring the idle to 1100 rpm but I can't bring it down. If I adjust the min duty it will also choke and die. I have the car warm, enough fuel, and the ve isn't being auto corrected.

Also, when I stop and idle control should resume the rpm will stay at 1400-1700 rpm. The closed loop idle only seems to activate upon initial startup.

Also, I ran the car for a little bit and I'm having a problem where the engine will rev freely to the limit under light throttle in gear and neutral. >70% throttle the car will choke at about 6krpm. The ecu does not shut off. I looked at the log and the only thing I found was a fuel flow went from 98cc/min to 361cc/min at the point where it cut out. I think I have a fuel problem. Does anyone have the deadtime curves for stock 99 injectors?

If it is a fuel problem it would explain the poor idle control.

Any thoughts?
3rdCarMX5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2012, 04:14 AM   #70
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Schwarzenberg, Germany
Posts: 1,497
Total Cats: 81
Default

- car stalling - adjust your last value table.

- fuel problem - after my problem with this, you did build after Franks How-to, did you add the grounds to the MS3X board?

Greets
Sven
Zaphod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2012, 01:43 AM   #71
Junior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 377
Total Cats: 0
Default

So that was part of my problem. I wired it up and the idle became controllable. Thanks for pointing that out. I think frank should update his wiring diagram for completeness. I would still be banging my head against the wall if you hadn't posted. I had to change my timing adjustment from -5.5 to 8.

The only problem I have with my idle is if I activate idle ve the idle will dip and my afr will go to 22, and be uncontrollable. I just disabled it, until I figure out what I'm missing. Also, my idle won't activate at a stoplight. The rpm will stay around 1450. If I press the ac button and then turn it off, the idle control will resume. What setting controls the idle activation on rpm decel?

However, I still have a problem where the car cuts fuel at 100 throttle at 7000rpm. It went up from 6100 before grounding the ms3x. My rev limit is set to 7500. Any ideas?
3rdCarMX5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2012, 03:20 AM   #72
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Schwarzenberg, Germany
Posts: 1,497
Total Cats: 81
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdCarMX5 View Post
So that was part of my problem. I wired it up and the idle became controllable. Thanks for pointing that out. I think frank should update his wiring diagram for completeness. I would still be banging my head against the wall if you hadn't posted. I had to change my timing adjustment from -5.5 to 8.
Strange - each and every 99-00 I have seen with a MS2 or 3 has this 5 or 5.5 value. (but +5.5 iirc)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdCarMX5 View Post
The only problem I have with my idle is if I activate idle ve the idle will dip and my afr will go to 22, and be uncontrollable. I just disabled it, until I figure out what I'm missing. Also, my idle won't activate at a stoplight. The rpm will stay around 1450. If I press the ac button and then turn it off, the idle control will resume. What setting controls the idle activation on rpm decel?
Have you adjusted your idleVE table? (doesn'tsound so to mee (you can even use VEanalyze live with a little change - see here: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewto...?f=122&t=45093

For your cl idle activation problem please look at the MS2/MS3 manual, where all the idle activation factors are very well explained:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/...rsion.htm#idle


Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdCarMX5 View Post
However, I still have a problem where the car cuts fuel at 100 throttle at 7000rpm. It went up from 6100 before grounding the ms3x. My rev limit is set to 7500. Any ideas?
Sounds like fuel cut rev limiter...
Zaphod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2012, 10:14 AM   #73
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,904
Total Cats: 1,793
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdCarMX5 View Post
The only problem I have with my idle is if I activate idle ve the idle will dip and my afr will go to 22, and be uncontrollable. I just disabled it, until I figure out what I'm missing.
ever think of tuning it?


Quote:
Also, my idle won't activate at a stoplight. The rpm will stay around 1450. If I press the ac button and then turn it off, the idle control will resume. What setting controls the idle activation on rpm decel?
check the lockout settings.

Quote:
However, I still have a problem where the car cuts fuel at 100 throttle at 7000rpm. It went up from 6100 before grounding the ms3x. My rev limit is set to 7500. Any ideas?
check your rev limiter settings.



is this post serious?
Braineack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2012, 05:18 PM   #74
Junior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 377
Total Cats: 0
Default

Thanks for the responses.

Yeah, the timing adjustment is higher than I have seen on other 99-00s. Rev posted in another thread that it is usually 5 +/- 1 to 2. Maybe my timing belt is skipped a tooth? I'm still having hard starts in the morning. I'll pull the plugs to make sure my TDC mark is right.

The IdleVe table was working, and I did attempt to fix it. I will just give it another shot. It is possible that I had changed too many things without running it in between or that the addition of the grounds (which alters fueling) caused a problem.

I will adjust the lockout setting. I should have looked into it further, but I added the question in haste. (fixed- lockout was too high)

The Rev limit is set to fuel cut at 7500, no other cuts enabled. It is a weird problem. I was hoping someone might have an idea. Car will rev to 7500rpm under light throttle with no load. If throttle and load are high it cuts out at 7krpm. No loss of sync or ecu shut off occurs. Could it be a spark problem? Like a misfire from a weak coil or too large of a plug gap for my timing table? I put in new plugs/wires when I installed the MS. They are gapped to .030" if I remember correctly, which I thought was in range. (fixed- clt rev limit was engaged even though no parameter was setup to limit rpm at or near this range.)


So these aren't questions anymore, but hopefully it helps someone else.

Last edited by 3rdCarMX5; 06-25-2012 at 09:50 PM.
3rdCarMX5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2012, 02:17 PM   #75
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 669
Total Cats: 29
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdCarMX5 View Post
Okay, the difference a day makes, I read up on how to control the rpm at idle and got it to smooth out a little and drop to 880, varies between 860 and 920. I'm aiming for 750 ish.
What document did you read up on? I'll be tuning idle (hopefully) as soon as i get my wideband back from Innovate. Hopefully i'll be able to stand on your shoulders and not bother brain so much now too when i set up my A/C.

Thanks.

Sub'd. PM unwritten tips and tricks if you have any.
yank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2012, 02:19 PM   #76
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,904
Total Cats: 1,793
Default

make sure to use the latest release: pre1.1 rc1

use the intial duties table, timing correction table, and voltage compensation table.
Braineack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2012, 01:37 PM   #77
Junior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 377
Total Cats: 0
Default

I am no expert, I just read what I could and asked what I couldn't interpret. Running beta makes everything better, but finding settings and what they do is a little more difficult because everything you will read is for an older version of tunerstudio. Most of it applies, but where it is and what values you enter will be totally different, which is the hardest part.

You will find yourself entering max and min values to find what a setting does, or what scale you are dealing with. Is the needed change .1 or 100? The only way to find out is to read and test, and re-read and re-test. IF it doesn't break anything, the worst that will happen is you have to go back to old settings. This is the worst part of getting started.

Don't blindly trust other peoples MSQs, every car is different. There is no shortcut to plugging in a tune and starting it up and only having to change one thing.

Right now I would rate my setup as follows
Startup 10/100 (need to find a good method to sort this out, anyone have a suggestion? It seems like I could waste hours tweaking things a here and there.)
Idle 50/100 (drops to idle smoothly, doesn't hunt or stutter but I want to finish my IdleVE table and go back through my initial duty table, etc.)
A/C 70/100 (activates and runs as it should but idle droops too much before it settles, no stalling but it should be better)
3rdCarMX5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2012, 02:35 PM   #78
Junior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 377
Total Cats: 0
Default

I have some lingering questions.

My Idle Duty PID settings seem very different from everything else I have seen. Any thoughts? I would really like to drop my idle closer to 750, but I can't get lower than 850. If I change my PID settings I can get an oscillation that will dip down to 700, but over correct to 1000. I have changed my idle target curve to match the fact I can't get below 850.

My Min Idle duty is 12.5 (any lower and the rpm doesn't change)
My P term is 2.2
My I term is 7
My D term is 0

My idle speed was pretty consistent at 850rpm (835-850) with a pretty stable AFR of 14.6/14.7.

I say was because I'm having heat soak issues with the GM IAT sensor (it has been hot lately), the AFR are a little wild (lean hot, rich cold) and I can't get Idle VE to stabilize. I am always tuning it, and I have tried to modify MAT corrections but the manual is very short on answers here. They seem to just say "the physics works don't change the settings" and if you have a problem "your sensor is the problem". So what is the best way to tune these settings? I tuned so that Gair/Gamma are 100%, but I may be thinking about it backwards, and maybe I need to change the settings in the other direction? It is difficult to understand what you are changing in TS when the units are dimensionless.

I am also having issues with starts. I have changed the PP and CP settings and the car will start, but it is not always consistent. I have checked for other MSQ settings and I find that they are mostly for 1.6L engines, which start much easier than a '99. It seems like I have to dump a lot of fuel to get consistent cranking, and sometimes the cranking will stop, when the key is still turned, and you can hear the idle valve slam shut (a rubber band-like noise). I am not flooding it though because a TPS flood clear will not make it start easier. I don't want to add more fuel because the engine will rev when it does start, which I assume is the result of a rich mixture.

'99, MS3x, EV14 775cc injectors (flow matched within .5%, yeah they are as good as everyone says).
3rdCarMX5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2012, 11:55 AM   #79
Junior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 377
Total Cats: 0
Default

Anyone have any input?

I think I've figured out the mat corrections, and my heat soak issue I'm working on.
3rdCarMX5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2012, 04:57 PM   #80
Junior Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Gilbert, Az
Posts: 337
Total Cats: 26
Default

Can you upload your latest map?
SJP0tato is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
15x10 - 15x11 6UL @ 949 Racing emilio700 Wheels and Tires 151 06-02-2017 03:36 PM
3rd Time's a Charm...hopefully. zephyrusaurai Meet and Greet 2 09-28-2015 11:59 PM
VR6 to Miata Swap ScrapinMX5 Meet and Greet 8 09-28-2015 02:04 PM
Another Alternator thread ihiryu General Miata Chat 9 09-28-2015 11:22 AM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:11 AM.