Super newbie trying to tune for the first time
01-28-2010, 03:15 AM
#1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 64
Total Cats: 0
Super newbie trying to tune for the first time
Here is some info about the car.
Body 91 - with MSPNP 90-93
Engine Stock 1.8 from a 97
Injectors flow matched stock - 254cc tan top
headers no cat, no maf
This car was originally tune by someone else with 17deg of timing NA
car will now be running a FFS cold-side M62 with the 105mm pulley - boosting at 10.5 psi - I will be using the MSPNP to control for fuel, ignition, and timing
I just want the car to run and boost safety
It is suppose to be good up to 200whp - along with their own water injection system called - ecool which injects fuel allowing to use stock injectors to achieve 200whp
"You want the 5th injector to supply about 15-20% of the total fuel"
here were some tips I got from them
Rev limit 6800
Set the AF for 11-11.5:1 throughout the entire rpm range when at full boost/power to redline. If it leans out to 12-12.5:1 below 4000rpm this is ok. Going off what the stock timing does, which is what we use with our piggyback setups, I would recommend having it at a constant timing from 4000-7000rpm. 20 deg is a starting point.
The stock ECU on my '00 runs 23-24 deg of timing from 4000-7000rpm. I find with our standard Coldside kit I run this timing (i.e. no timing retard) with the 105mm pulley. I wouldn't go any more advanced than this amount. I have tried as high as 28 deg a few years back on a Hotside with a standalone and found that it didn't increase the power any more than at 24 deg even though it didn't have knock. Thus, I think 24 deg is about as far as necessary for maximum power.... provided no detonation of course.
Similarly with the AF ratio. I used to recommend 12-12.5:1, but that was my experience on getting the most power on an Air/Air intercooled Hotside. On the Coldside, I haven't really seen much, if any, loss in power in running 11-11.5:1 and it gives you a lot more safety margin so I recommend going richer.
A constant timing from 4000-7000 rpm at 20 deg up to 24 the limit
Set timing back to 10 deg
I pulled the original maps of the car and started to play with them and this is what I got
Spark Map
AF targets to VE
VE map (the is the only map i did not change from what was in the car because I have no idea where to start despite reading up on it)
ORIGINAL INFO FROM THE CAR - the car is set to 17 deg
Spark Map
AF targets to VE
VE map (unchanged from above)
Other settings that I pulled from the car that I am confused about
I did the required fuel part and it came out differently?
Why is it set to boost control - i saw the base map and it option 1 was selected?
Why is it set to 22.5 but trigger angle is <90 - shouldn't it be at 0 - I would also have to change the Cranking advance Angle back to 10 or does this go back to 10 when I change the timing?
How do I tune the VE table to get this car safety running and boosting?
Does my map look okay?
What other things do I have to do before I start the car up and drive it around?
Thank
Body 91 - with MSPNP 90-93
Engine Stock 1.8 from a 97
Injectors flow matched stock - 254cc tan top
headers no cat, no maf
This car was originally tune by someone else with 17deg of timing NA
car will now be running a FFS cold-side M62 with the 105mm pulley - boosting at 10.5 psi - I will be using the MSPNP to control for fuel, ignition, and timing
I just want the car to run and boost safety
It is suppose to be good up to 200whp - along with their own water injection system called - ecool which injects fuel allowing to use stock injectors to achieve 200whp
"You want the 5th injector to supply about 15-20% of the total fuel"
here were some tips I got from them
Rev limit 6800
Set the AF for 11-11.5:1 throughout the entire rpm range when at full boost/power to redline. If it leans out to 12-12.5:1 below 4000rpm this is ok. Going off what the stock timing does, which is what we use with our piggyback setups, I would recommend having it at a constant timing from 4000-7000rpm. 20 deg is a starting point.
The stock ECU on my '00 runs 23-24 deg of timing from 4000-7000rpm. I find with our standard Coldside kit I run this timing (i.e. no timing retard) with the 105mm pulley. I wouldn't go any more advanced than this amount. I have tried as high as 28 deg a few years back on a Hotside with a standalone and found that it didn't increase the power any more than at 24 deg even though it didn't have knock. Thus, I think 24 deg is about as far as necessary for maximum power.... provided no detonation of course.
Similarly with the AF ratio. I used to recommend 12-12.5:1, but that was my experience on getting the most power on an Air/Air intercooled Hotside. On the Coldside, I haven't really seen much, if any, loss in power in running 11-11.5:1 and it gives you a lot more safety margin so I recommend going richer.
A constant timing from 4000-7000 rpm at 20 deg up to 24 the limit
Set timing back to 10 deg
I pulled the original maps of the car and started to play with them and this is what I got
Spark Map
AF targets to VE
VE map (the is the only map i did not change from what was in the car because I have no idea where to start despite reading up on it)
ORIGINAL INFO FROM THE CAR - the car is set to 17 deg
Spark Map
AF targets to VE
VE map (unchanged from above)
Other settings that I pulled from the car that I am confused about
I did the required fuel part and it came out differently?
Why is it set to boost control - i saw the base map and it option 1 was selected?
Why is it set to 22.5 but trigger angle is <90 - shouldn't it be at 0 - I would also have to change the Cranking advance Angle back to 10 or does this go back to 10 when I change the timing?
How do I tune the VE table to get this car safety running and boosting?
Does my map look okay?
What other things do I have to do before I start the car up and drive it around?
Thank
Reply
0
0
01-28-2010, 08:15 AM
#2
I'm not that experienced in MS but a couple things jump out at me.
First, your AF target table is WAY off. If that's volts and your running the standard setup on your wideband (which looks like you are based on the ego trigger value) you should be at 2.5 volts from 70 kpa down.
Second, from what I've seen around here that spark map looks pretty agressive, however I'm used to looking at turbochargers that might have a higher IAT temp. I probably wouldn't exceed 20 degrees however, especially for the first run.
First, your AF target table is WAY off. If that's volts and your running the standard setup on your wideband (which looks like you are based on the ego trigger value) you should be at 2.5 volts from 70 kpa down.
Second, from what I've seen around here that spark map looks pretty agressive, however I'm used to looking at turbochargers that might have a higher IAT temp. I probably wouldn't exceed 20 degrees however, especially for the first run.
Reply
0
0
01-28-2010, 08:48 AM
#5
Boost Czar
iTrader: (62)
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 79,493
Total Cats: 4,080
...from the manual
Trigger Angle (deg) is the angle Before Top Dead Centre (BTDC) when the selected trigger position (Trig Pos) Tooth (if using wheel decoder) or the Vane on the crank or the Points in a locked distributor, etc, passes the sensor. This is used by the ECU to calculate when to fire the coil(s) as it knows that every time it receives a trigger pulse it is at xxdeg BTDC and the entire spark map is worked out when to fire from the Trigger Angle. When the engine is first started this is the angle that needs to be altered to get the spark fired at the correct time, this is done by setting the "Fixed Angle" (this ignores the spark map and holds the sparked angle to the value you enter) to around 10deg and, using a timing light, ensure the ECU is firing the coil at the Fixed Angle. If the timing is not being fired at the fixed angle then alter the "Trigger Angle" until the timing is at the fixed angle. Once the Trigger Angle has been changed so the Fixed Angle is being fired by the ECU then change the Fixed Angle back to -10 so the ECU will follow the spark map.
Typically you should aim for a Trigger Angle of 60-70deg or 0-5deg as this is outside the usual range that the spark is needed. (this can be altered by using a different tooth for triggering on the wheel decoder or by altering the sensor position on MSnS setups)
If using an OEM distributor setup like HEI7 or TFI then 5-15deg is typical, see the relevant section earlier.
IMPORTANT - do NOT set your total Trigger Angle (i.e. Trigger Angle plus additions) in the range 20 to 50 degrees as you will encounter problems and be unable to get your desired advance. If this is the Trigger Angle you calculate then you either need to move your crank sensor/wheel or modify your distributor to obtain a compatible trigger angle. This is due to the way the ECU calculates the spark timing, the calculations need around a 5deg band from the Trigger Angle.
e.g. If you set a Trigger Angle of 23 degrees (no additions) then your maximum advance would be about 18degrees which will almost certainly give you a very lame engine down on power.
If the Trigger Angle setting is less than 15 deg the code will use "Next Cylinder" sparking, which means it will work out the timing for the next spark rather than the current spark, this is perfectly acceptable.
Typically you should aim for a Trigger Angle of 60-70deg or 0-5deg as this is outside the usual range that the spark is needed. (this can be altered by using a different tooth for triggering on the wheel decoder or by altering the sensor position on MSnS setups)
If using an OEM distributor setup like HEI7 or TFI then 5-15deg is typical, see the relevant section earlier.
IMPORTANT - do NOT set your total Trigger Angle (i.e. Trigger Angle plus additions) in the range 20 to 50 degrees as you will encounter problems and be unable to get your desired advance. If this is the Trigger Angle you calculate then you either need to move your crank sensor/wheel or modify your distributor to obtain a compatible trigger angle. This is due to the way the ECU calculates the spark timing, the calculations need around a 5deg band from the Trigger Angle.
e.g. If you set a Trigger Angle of 23 degrees (no additions) then your maximum advance would be about 18degrees which will almost certainly give you a very lame engine down on power.
If the Trigger Angle setting is less than 15 deg the code will use "Next Cylinder" sparking, which means it will work out the timing for the next spark rather than the current spark, this is perfectly acceptable.
Reply
0
0
01-28-2010, 08:52 AM
#6
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (33)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: atlanta-ish
Posts: 12,659
Total Cats: 134
What kind of wideband controller are you running?
Did you verify your timing with a timing light?
I'd highly suggest that you glance through THIS post, as well as the manuals it directs you towards.
The spark map seems pretty aggressive to me. I would take it easy on the spark, until after you've got a little better handle on the fueling. Then, once you've addressed the fuel system (replaced the stock injectors with larger ones), and you're on a load dyno, then you can start dialing in spark.
You should definitely be able to tune it in to make good power, once all the pieces are in place.
Did you verify your timing with a timing light?
I'd highly suggest that you glance through THIS post, as well as the manuals it directs you towards.
The spark map seems pretty aggressive to me. I would take it easy on the spark, until after you've got a little better handle on the fueling. Then, once you've addressed the fuel system (replaced the stock injectors with larger ones), and you're on a load dyno, then you can start dialing in spark.
You should definitely be able to tune it in to make good power, once all the pieces are in place.
Reply
0
0
01-28-2010, 10:25 AM
#8
Junior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 64
Total Cats: 0
So can I leave my fuel map un-touch for now and just take it easy on the spark map. Is my new AF targets to VE okay?
I think the reason the car is running lean is because the previous owner tuned it as a all track auto-x car - so he wanted to lean it out for that extra power.
I am running the LC-1.
I have yet to verify the timing - as the SC is not installed yet.
I think the reason the car is running lean is because the previous owner tuned it as a all track auto-x car - so he wanted to lean it out for that extra power.
I am running the LC-1.
I have yet to verify the timing - as the SC is not installed yet.
Reply
0
0
01-28-2010, 10:41 AM
#10
Boost Czar
iTrader: (62)
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 79,493
Total Cats: 4,080
this does not matter, the MS controls the timing, not the SC.
You have to sync your MS with your CAS. It's possible you could assume you're running 20° of timing, however, if not synced, the CAS could be 10° advanced from what you think you're controlling.
Reply
0
0
01-28-2010, 10:47 AM
#11
Junior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 64
Total Cats: 0
I have to set the timing back to 10 when I install the SC I can verify it then when I set the timing back t0 10 - I confirmed with the previous owner that he did use 17 deg.
Reply
0
0
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
