1.6l: SMOKING. Built bottom end, smoke out of oil dipstick/valve cover - Page 8 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 06-19-2012, 08:33 PM   #141
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Not sure what the red stuff is. Probably some sealant from the head maybe valve cover?. Not a big deal.

I certainly did not use a rol-loc. I will post a pic of what I used.
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Old 06-21-2012, 01:09 PM   #142
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Got a word back from the head shop. They are convinced my rings are causing the issue. Too much pressure in the head causing the head to leak.

What do you guys think? Anyway I can check the bottom end before pulling the other half of the motor out?

I am very close to saying who did the build. As soon as I can verify that it's the bottom end I will say the name of the shop. It's a local shop to my area. I want other people to not get burned by them.
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Old 06-21-2012, 02:29 PM   #143
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Too much pressure in the head? Huh? what???

Your compression to much? or too much boost?

Lets back up and get back to what is known.

First the car smokes on decell only after boost...
2nd, the turbo is a BB set at 5 psi and about 7k miles old.
third, the builder checked turbo said all is fine.
forth,oil was seen in the exhaust runners.
Did you see an oil trail in the intake runners?
fifth, leak down was less than 15% and comp was 175 across the board.
sixth, no oil was seen in the turbo elbow or DP
seventh, pressure out the dipstick tube and oil fill.

Have I missed anything here?



Long shot #2...

Exhaust gas pressure is going up the guide during boost, causing the seals to flair or unseal, then when off boost, sucking oil down the guide causing the smoking.

Check guides for excessive wear and install a set of Hi-temp ble vition stem seals

You are sure the the turbo you have is a ball bearing and not a journal bearing/bushing?



Also the cross hatch I can see looks to be between 30* and 60*, it should be a nice X pattern of 90*.

If it was the oil rings, it would smoke from idle all thu the rpm band.
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Old 06-21-2012, 03:29 PM   #144
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Any chance you could source a cheap used head just to throw on and see if the same thing happens. I still think its the head.
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Old 06-21-2012, 04:02 PM   #145
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I now have two fully rebuilt heads with all new seals.

BogusSVO,

Again, car smokes when: it's warmed up. After it idles for about a minute and I blip the throttle a plume of blue smoke comes out. Same happens after crushing on a highway out of boost and decelerating for a while in high vacuum. As soon as I blip the throttle it smokes. I don't see any smoke when accelerating boost or no boost. And I get a little bit of smoke when up shifting.

The turbo is for sure 100% good. It's a gt2554rs ball bearing turbo.

Oil was evident in the top of the exhaust ports, and tops of the valves. So the oil never makes down the valve that's probably why I don't get oil on start up. It's like if the oil is beeing pushed or pulled out the top of the valve. Guides are good as well.


I have two options.

1. Put the head back on and see if the issue comes back.

2. Pull the rest of the motor out and have a reputable shop put new rings, measure a the tolerances and rehone the block.

The engine builder keeps telling me to bring the motor to him and he will take care of it if it's his fault. And keeps saying that rings have probably not seated yet. The car has 500 miles on it. And I did multiple 1500 to redline pulls in very low boost. corky told me that's how he breaks in all his race motors.
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Old 06-21-2012, 04:53 PM   #146
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If the builder is willing to go back thu the short block, let him

Ask for a spec sheet, of the clearances used, dosnt have to be fancy, just a sheet of notebook paper with the notes he took during assembly.

you should have P2W clearance , piston dia, ring gap, rod side clearance, rod and main clearance
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Old 06-21-2012, 05:41 PM   #147
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I have very little trust in his abilities. He screwed up so many times I don't want to take chances again. From upside down cam gears, loose oil supply line, loose downpipe bolts, missing downpipe gasket, wrong headgasket. Not taking chances.
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Old 06-21-2012, 10:13 PM   #148
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Upside down gears? Pretty sure the valvecover won't fit. If the gears are inverted. Also I you mean clocked wrong it wouldn't run or run at all depending. Your truly losing my faith as a human being in this. Wrong head gasket? Like one for an S2000 or a F150? Or do you mean a '01-'05 used on a different year? It took you 3 pages to finally say what AN lines you had on stuff.
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Old 06-21-2012, 10:57 PM   #149
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Ok just so I wouldn't be a liar and speak before I knew. I went out and unsealed my '99 head. I make no claim to the 1.6 valvecover and gears. No experience with them. But, Miatas are pretty close. Like I said I unsealed my '99 head, installed a cam gear on "backwards" ie: inverted. The vavlecover will not bolt on. The holes are about 1/2 off from center. Plus the cover hits the cam gear.

This is inverted.


This is clocked wrong


This is correct


Which on of these is what was done. I admit I do not vouch for the fitment on 1.6. However, from pics they seem alike.
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1.6l: SMOKING. Built bottom end, smoke out of oil dipstick/valve cover-9yujf.jpg   1.6l: SMOKING. Built bottom end, smoke out of oil dipstick/valve cover-1g6ev.jpg   1.6l: SMOKING. Built bottom end, smoke out of oil dipstick/valve cover-b833l.jpg  
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Old 06-21-2012, 10:58 PM   #150
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Gear were 30 degrees off. Clocked incorectly. Just shows that he did not know what he was doing. I caught it when I was setting the timing and installing the CAS.

He told me he used a cometic gasket that I paid for but when I pulled the head it was an oem style gasket.
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Old 06-21-2012, 11:02 PM   #151
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I am past this already. I am enough mechanically included that I could do this motor build myself. But i just don't have enought time to screw up on it.
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Old 06-21-2012, 11:26 PM   #152
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So are they supertech pistons?

I've used soft brown rolocs to resurface my block and head twice already without issue while using felpro mls HG. I know it's not the best way, but I am confident in my skill and I knew the surfaces were flat to begin with, just a light clean up before installing the head.

I wouldn't expect to see this kind of work from a engine shop though...

I am also curious to know if the way you broke it in was the way a full race motor should be broken in and not a steet engine. Race motors are refreshed often.

Here is a shot my my 1.8 block after a hone and resurface, and the head after a diy valve job and resurface. I've been running 15lbs of boost on it for about 3k miles with no oil burning and 190psi compression across.
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1.6l: SMOKING. Built bottom end, smoke out of oil dipstick/valve cover-bogus.jpg   1.6l: SMOKING. Built bottom end, smoke out of oil dipstick/valve cover-img_20120108_164451.jpg  
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Old 06-21-2012, 11:31 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rushin View Post
I am past this already. I am enough mechanically included that I could do this motor build myself. But i just don't have enought time to screw up on it.
I hop yu tern a wreanch beater then tipe.


Your gears should look like this. I ask because some have done it wrong and trying to clarify. I'm 99% sure if the gears were clocked wrong the car would run like a bag of ***. Because that would also make your cam timing off 120deg. There is no 30deg slot. 360/3slots=120deg yes I am arguing the details because this thread has been a bit fuzzy on what is going on.
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Old 06-21-2012, 11:43 PM   #154
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Typing on a phone. I know how the gears should look, thank you. I have taken the head off on this and my other motor about 7 times already. So I can do this job in reverse pretty easily. Just don't know if I should or I should just pull the rest of the motor out.
I still don't know how the bottom end can cause valve seals to leak.
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Old 06-22-2012, 11:41 AM   #155
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First, if the engine was out of time by 30*, I doubt it would have even fired up, and if it did..it would not have enough power to pull itself down the road, and the compression would have been low due to over lap of mistimed cams.

Now how did you come up with the cams being out by 30*?

A bottom end ring issue can not cause valve stem seals to leak...Not in anyway I can think of.

Now lets back up a bit further.... what was the reason for the rebuild in the first place?
just up grading the engine? rings wore out, old tired engine?
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Old 06-22-2012, 01:40 PM   #156
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Just forget about the gears. The reason I mentioned the was because It was just another thing that the builder fucked up.

The reason for a rebuild was to have a strong fresh built motor so I could run more boost and not worry about blowing up the motor.

My old motor was smoking a little bit when accelerating and coming to a stop. It had 160k so it was time.

Now I have a new motor that essentially smokes even worse.

I just want to understand why the head shop is telling me that the seals were somehow destroyed not by improper install or bad seals but because something in the bottom end causing it. Like excessive blow by. But I just don't see that possible.
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Old 06-22-2012, 02:32 PM   #157
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Ask the head shop how bad rings will cause the valve stem seals to leak....


sounds like a case of baffle the customer with BS, so we can get his work.


Like I have told you before.... if you build enough crank case pressure to blow oil past the valve stem seals... you would be blowing the cam seals out, the rear main seal and the front crank seal.

We keep going in circles here..... there is only a limited number of things that can cause your issue.

With the time spent going over the same things over and over, you could have pulled the short block, took it back to the org builder hand it honed again, and another new set of rings installed and back in.

But as the owner, you need to decide what is the best corse of action is.

Go back to the org builder...
Take it to another builder
Build it yourself..
Junk what you have and start over.


Since the old motor smoked a tad...

Do you know if the head was off before you owned the car?

With the oil in the exhaust runners it makes me wonder if the guides were replaced and sucking oil past the od of the guide.

I am to the point to tell you th "shotgun" the car.... start swapping out parts and see what changes.

Leave the short block alone, install the 2nd head and see what happens... still smokes change another part.
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Old 06-22-2012, 03:03 PM   #158
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The head on the old motor that was smoking was rebuilt. And that's the head I intend to use.

I have no idea how bottom end can cause valve seals to leak. I did notice that I had a lot of pressure coming out of the the valve cover and oil dipstick at idle.

Like I said before I am not going to bring the motor to the original engine builder. I have no trust in his mechanical abilities.
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Old 06-25-2012, 01:32 PM   #159
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Now that you have had the weekend....

What move have you made?
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Old 06-25-2012, 04:58 PM   #160
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Been out of state and a wedding all weekend. So far the plan is to put the good head on the motor with new head gasket and see what happens. Worst case I am out on a headgasket.
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