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Methanol/Water Injection Place to talk about meth/water injection.

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Old 06-02-2009, 01:39 AM   #41
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Haha, it should. I thought Joe already was running WI?
He is, but I don't think he's pushing it as far as you guys seem to be doing. There's a "post your spark map" thread somewhere in the MS forum (that I can't seem to find now) where he posted his map. I remember shying away from "stealing" it b/c he was running WI, but I don't think it was anywhere near as aggressive as the maps you've posted. It seems like a lot of people see water/alcohol injection as a safety net rather than something to gain power. Hopefully that starts to change, I'd love to feel safe-ish pushing a little more power than I am currently
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Old 06-02-2009, 01:41 AM   #42
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He is, but I don't think he's pushing it as far as you guys seem to be doing. There's a "post your spark map" thread somewhere in the MS forum (that I can't seem to find now) where he posted his map. I remember shying away from "stealing" it b/c he was running WI, but I don't think it was anywhere near as aggressive as the maps you've posted. It seems like a lot of people see water/alcohol injection as a safety net rather than something to gain power. Hopefully that starts to change, I'd love to feel safe-ish pushing a little more power than I am currently
If its safe enough for me to run it with out an intercooler i dunno what more proof is needed. More will follow wes i hope and then all hondas shall tremble in fear of our Miataturbo.net stickers.
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Old 06-02-2009, 01:46 AM   #43
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If its safe enough for me to run it with out an intercooler i dunno what more proof is needed. More will follow wes i hope and then all hondas shall tremble in fear of our Miataturbo.net stickers.
Hell Yes. So, you think i can run more boost?
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Old 06-02-2009, 01:49 AM   #44
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what is your DC on the 550's? i think you could probly lean out alil and run some more boost if you arent to strapped on DC i would try 1-2 psi at a time. I dont have a map of your turbo in front of me but just where do you run out of effeciency on that thing? What are your AIT's btw before and after? I think you need to make it to automotion to get your **** verified to. I been meaning to go back there but leary of it in the same light last time I was scheduled to go i was gonna run with andyfloyd and my motor popped the day before /cry
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Old 06-02-2009, 01:55 AM   #45
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I am staying pretty damn close to ambient now. Within 10* anyway. I really dont know on my DC. I will have to look tomorrow. I do know that i pulled a shitload of fuel out of the map, so the DC should be good. My m-tuned fuel rail just arrived and i have all new injector seals. Once that is all installed and i have some cash available, i will be buying a BEGi FPR so that i can increase the fuel pressure to get more out of my 550's.




On a side note, i'm going to need a new boost gauge soon. The BEGi one only goes to 20psi.
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Old 06-02-2009, 02:01 AM   #46
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dont bother you can have my 12-1 if you like but seriusly at your power lvl some 650's is hardly a sacrifice if you need em i predict you will run out of room by 345 or so whp give or take at 94% DC another question is what fuel pump do you have the stock 160 and even a 190 are gonna have alil trouble keeping you fed esp if you up the pressure.,
Also what map sensor do you have in the MS if it is a 2.5 bar then you can only run like 20 psi if its a 5 bar mapdaddy you are good to go. past i would say 19 psi your gonna make more hot air than hp

Also rember stock fpr is 1-1 while boosting so you have 18 psi more FP than stock at max boost anyway.
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Old 06-02-2009, 02:09 AM   #47
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dont bother you can have my 12-1 if you like but seriusly at your power lvl some 650's is hardly a sacrifice if you need em i predict you will run out of room by 345 or so whp give or take at 94% DC another question is what fuel pump do you have the stock 160 and even a 190 are gonna have alil trouble keeping you fed esp if you up the pressure.,
Also what map sensor do you have in the MS if it is a 2.5 bar then you can only run like 20 psi if its a 5 bar mapdaddy you are good to go. past i would say 19 psi your gonna make more hot air than hp

Also rember stock fpr is 1-1 while boosting so you have 18 psi more FP than stock at max boost anyway.
I have a walbro 255 fuel pump and the 4 bar mapdaddy so those should be good to go. I am thinking that the WI is bringing my bsfc closer to like .55 so i should be good with these or possibly some 650's. In all reality, i will probably be happy with 345whp because even at that level, traction will be a thing of the past.
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Old 06-02-2009, 02:15 AM   #48
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yep mroe than 300 is whp on a street miata is totally unusable for anything but but pucker moments. I think your good to go man you could definatly try some more boost but iono if you wont just be making more heat fromt he look of your map. i had my bsfc pegged around .5 with my first setup on stock fuel system at 176 whp on automotions rollers so yeak you prob have room on the 550's still. Aslo try abit more water to bring your aits below ambeint i experimented in 5% increments from 60% and came up with abotu 20% methanol being a very happy medium. Methanol has a stoich of like 18-1 i believe so you can lean that sucker into the 12's probly and still be ok. I wanna see the 1/8th mile burn out if you take it to the valley. God you make me wanna reinsure mine and take it to beach bend Ty wes.
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Old 06-02-2009, 10:45 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by wes65 View Post
Haha, it should. I thought Joe already was running WI?
Yes, I am. And I'm being a ***** about it.

For the most part, I've been relying upon the WI as more of a safety factor than anything else. Running a 3 GPH nozzle and fairly conservative timing.

This thread however has really encouraged me to take this thing to the next level. I've been doing a lot of googling and a lot of reading, and I have decided that I need to up my water:fuel ratio and then start getting aggressive about the timing.

One SAE tech paper which I read "Water Injection Effects In A Single-Cylinder CFR Engine" confirmed my long-standing (but unsupported) theory that the principal benefit is not the cooling of the intake change in the plenum, but rather the absorption of energy by the water during the compression and combustion cycles. This paper, as well as a couple of other sources, suggests that the water injection nozzle be placed as near as practical to the inlet valve(s), to achieve optimum dispersal and to prevent the water from vaporizing prior to its ingestion into the chamber.

So now I'm thinking that instead of just running a single large injector, I may be better served placing four smaller nozzles somewhere on the intake manifold. An ideal placement would seem to be on the outboard side, in the individual runners, directed towards the ports. Trying to drill these holes will probably prove to be a challenge. I wonder if placing nozzles on the inboard side of the manifold, pointed at the entry into the runners, would produce anything resembling optimum dispersal?

Since I have a progressive controller, I may start by ordering a couple of different nozzles and visually observing their atomization performance at various pump pressures (IOW: various duty cycles). This should also provide some answers on the rather long-standing question I've has regarding the linearity of the pumps performance over the whole range of duty cycles. IOW, does 100% DC provide 2x the flow of 50% DC? Does the controller properly account for this, such that 100% of boost target produces 2x the water of 50% of boost target? Etc.


How impossible is it to remove the intake manifold with the head on the car, I wonder?
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Old 06-02-2009, 11:18 AM   #50
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Well, just ordered a stock 1.6 manifold off of eBay (for $29.50 delivered) to experiment with. I'm thinking 4x 2GPH or 3GPH nozzles, aimed into the ports, possibly from the bottom.

It begins.
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Old 06-02-2009, 11:32 AM   #51
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How impossible is it to remove the intake manifold with the head on the car, I wonder?

It's actually pretty easy. Shouldn't take you long at all.
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Old 06-02-2009, 11:59 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by magnamx-5 View Post
yep mroe than 300 is whp on a street miata is totally unusable for anything but but pucker moments. I think your good to go man you could definatly try some more boost but iono if you wont just be making more heat fromt he look of your map. i had my bsfc pegged around .5 with my first setup on stock fuel system at 176 whp on automotions rollers so yeak you prob have room on the 550's still. Aslo try abit more water to bring your aits below ambeint i experimented in 5% increments from 60% and came up with abotu 20% methanol being a very happy medium. Methanol has a stoich of like 18-1 i believe so you can lean that sucker into the 12's probly and still be ok. I wanna see the 1/8th mile burn out if you take it to the valley. God you make me wanna reinsure mine and take it to beach bend Ty wes.
Glad i could be an inspiration Where did you find the stoich of methanol? Everything that i've read says that stoich is around 6:1
Methanol fuel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Well, just ordered a stock 1.6 manifold off of eBay (for $29.50 delivered) to experiment with. I'm thinking 4x 2GPH or 3GPH nozzles, aimed into the ports, possibly from the bottom.

It begins.
Hell yes. Should be very interesting to see. If it works out for you, it may be something to consider for my built motor.
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Old 06-02-2009, 02:02 PM   #53
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doh yeah i coulda swore it was in my Lc1 docs for calibration but still you can run closer to the Na ideal of 13-1 for non fuel wasting power hence why we can run 12.5 or so to 1 and be safe vs people who run 11-1 etc.
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Old 06-02-2009, 03:04 PM   #54
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Wes,
That compressor map says that you are out of useful efficiency before 20psi. You could possibly increase flow by reducing restrictions and therefore cause the psi to drop but the CFMs to increase and keep the compressor working in the sweet part of the map. Can you open up the exhaust any more? Then there are IM and intercooler losses. What kind of pressure drop are you seeing across your intercooler at 18psi?

So there's quite a bit more power to be had without running out of numbers on the gauge! Oh, and then there's cams...

I love this stuff.
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Old 06-02-2009, 03:55 PM   #55
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i am a ***** also because with my ais meth kit i have a 3 gph and i only run 20* timing at 15psi. i still have to tune it a bit more but i am sure that i can go a bit higher with it on. my af ratio goes all the way to 10 ish with the spray on. it kills power so i am going to add timeing and remove a bit of fuel. so far no knock. with out meth i get knock with the cheap 91 oct gas. i hate CA gas.
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Old 06-03-2009, 01:10 AM   #56
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8-9 gph damn joe thats a hell of alot of water. Its pretty easy to pull the mani whil on the motor just make sure youb get a few new gaskets cause they dont like to be reused.
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Old 06-03-2009, 02:19 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by wes65 View Post
Where did you find the stoich of methanol?
I've been doing a lot of reading on Meth today. Everything I've come across indicates that stoich is either 6.4:1 or 6.5:1.
Sources:
Alcohol for Motor Fuels
Engine & fuel engineering - Ignition timing for Methanol vs Gasoline
https://www.fordmuscle.com/forums/ga...-methanol.html
Calculating AFR for Alcohol Injection, Tuning AFR for Methanol Alcohol | R U Subaru?

FYI, a related musing: https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t35717/

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Originally Posted by wes65
Hell yes. Should be very interesting to see. If it works out for you, it may be something to consider for my built motor.
Frankly, I'm bored and I need another project. If I run out of **** to do on the Miata I'm going to wind up with another car sitting in the driveway.



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8-9 gph damn joe thats a hell of alot of water.
Yeah, that was my first thought as well.

I've come across a number of papers recently which suggest that the detonation-reducing properties of a 50/50 mixture of methanol and water continue to increase until a methanol/water to gasoline ratio of anywhere from 25-35% is achieved. With 465cc injectors and assuming max 90% DC, my max fuel is 1674cc/min. A set of 2 GPH nozzles, assuming 100% DC at rated pressure, will deliver 504 cc/min, which is 30% of max fuel, and of course with the progressive controller I have some degree of fine-tuning capability. Obviously I'd be running a bit thick at the lower RPMs, but I can probably find a happy middle-ground.


Quote:
=magnamx5]Its pretty easy to pull the mani whil on the motor just make sure youb get a few new gaskets cause they dont like to be reused.
Yeah, trying to decide if the so-called heat-insulating gaskets (which also block the coolant passage) are worth anything, or just hype and cheap plastic.
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Old 06-04-2009, 03:26 AM   #58
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hype and cheap plastic for my money. So long as the controller realy works as desired i dont see why it wouldnt be feasable. More than a 25% aprox mix spray has always bogged me down though.
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Old 07-16-2009, 03:42 PM   #59
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I agree. AFter about 18psi on the gt2860rs, you won't see much increase. You can also look to a .86AR turbine housing and you'll make significantly more power.

Did you guys running 28* advance at peak torque/15psi actually make more power with more advance? I hit MBT in my car at 22* at 4200rpm and more advance provided no benefit.
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