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Old 08-09-2008, 02:24 AM   #21
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Does anyone here have pictures of their install? preferably under the hood and using the windshield washer bottle.

Also, would one nozzle implanted into the middle of the intake manifold suffice? I figure if it works in a pipe then with this approach it should work even better.
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Old 08-09-2008, 02:39 AM   #22
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Received via PM, however I'm answering here as this is probably useful for others.
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Originally Posted by name withheld
I just read your response in my thread about pre turbo WI. You mentioned that you wired up your MS control the WI but couldnt find the magic valve to make it all work.

Did you mean valve or value?

What problems did you encounter in making it work?

In a nutshell, does the MS replace the pressure switch that comes with the kit?

Also, is it possible to regulate how much water is injected or is it a set amount and an on/off type setup?

I hope you can answer these, I appreciate it.
Valve. A device which opens and closes to regulate the flow of a liquid.

I originally installed my WI system long before the MS went in. I'm using a progressive controller made by DO, which regulates (by PWM) the power supplied to the injection pump, relative to manifold pressure. At less than 2 PSI of boost, the pump is off. At 2 PSI (this is adjustable) the controller begins to supply a small amount of power to the pump. The power increases as MAP increases, until the pump is operating at 100% power by about 12 PSI (also adjustable).

This is non-optimal. It's ten thousand percent better than a simple on-off system, however it is inferior to a system where, rather than simply regulating power to the pump, the flow of mixture is directly regulated with a valve very similar to a fuel injector, and also where said regulation takes into account both RPM and MAP, whereas my system operates on MAP alone.

Aquamist's high-end systems are like this. They always inject mixture at a precise ratio relative to fuel. In theory, this is superior to what I'm doing.

Problem is that Aquamists charges too much for their valve. Some speculation ran around for a while about a different supplier, but I kinda lost track of it. My system works well enough that I never really bothered changing it over.

Now, if you're going to remain on/off (non-regulated) and simply want MS to control when the pump turns on (replacing the pressure switch) then by all means yes. Just build the relay driver circuit and use it to control a relay which drives the pump. For me, that would have been a step backwards however.

You should read the modpage for MS WI at the msextra site. Long story short= to do WI the "proper" way with MS, you have two outputs: One drives a relay that turns the pump on, the other controls the High Speed Valve (the meth injector) that injects mixture at a rate exactly equal to that of the main injector channels. You size the nozzle appropriately to set the mixture:fuel ratio, and that's it.
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Old 08-09-2008, 09:04 AM   #23
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He's just rephrasing the links posted above. Thats not his theory.
Listen here Mr NB owner dont go putting words in my mouth and pissing me off. I did not click a single link up there, all i spaeck from is experience. So STFU
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Old 08-09-2008, 11:15 AM   #24
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Listen here Mr NB owner dont go putting words in my mouth and pissing me off. I did not click a single link up there, all i spaeck from is experience. So STFU
I meant Savington. I know you know what youre talking about.
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Old 08-09-2008, 11:23 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Received via PM, however I'm answering here as this is probably useful for others.


Valve. A device which opens and closes to regulate the flow of a liquid.

I originally installed my WI system long before the MS went in. I'm using a progressive controller made by DO, which regulates (by PWM) the power supplied to the injection pump, relative to manifold pressure. At less than 2 PSI of boost, the pump is off. At 2 PSI (this is adjustable) the controller begins to supply a small amount of power to the pump. The power increases as MAP increases, until the pump is operating at 100% power by about 12 PSI (also adjustable).

This is non-optimal. It's ten thousand percent better than a simple on-off system, however it is inferior to a system where, rather than simply regulating power to the pump, the flow of mixture is directly regulated with a valve very similar to a fuel injector, and also where said regulation takes into account both RPM and MAP, whereas my system operates on MAP alone.

Aquamist's high-end systems are like this. They always inject mixture at a precise ratio relative to fuel. In theory, this is superior to what I'm doing.

Problem is that Aquamists charges too much for their valve. Some speculation ran around for a while about a different supplier, but I kinda lost track of it. My system works well enough that I never really bothered changing it over.

Now, if you're going to remain on/off (non-regulated) and simply want MS to control when the pump turns on (replacing the pressure switch) then by all means yes. Just build the relay driver circuit and use it to control a relay which drives the pump. For me, that would have been a step backwards however.

You should read the modpage for MS WI at the msextra site. Long story short= to do WI the "proper" way with MS, you have two outputs: One drives a relay that turns the pump on, the other controls the High Speed Valve (the meth injector) that injects mixture at a rate exactly equal to that of the main injector channels. You size the nozzle appropriately to set the mixture:fuel ratio, and that's it.
I understand now. Not a very smart but simple.

I find it interesting that the pump can turn on/off that fast in the simple system and provide pressure instantly.

I looked through the aquamist and coolingmist sites, hardware is impressive. They both provide a controlled injector, but the price of the unit is a bit excessive. 200 bucks is quite a bit for just the injector.

As far as activating the DO kit with the MS. Why would I need a relay driving circuit? Shouldn't I just have to tell the MS which pin the water injection is on and just wire that pin of the relay to it? Or do I need something like the circuit for the boost conroller?

What happens if the nozzle is implanted into the manifold and the engine is in vacuum, does the engine create enough vacuum to draw water out of the nozzle when the system is off?

Last edited by Saml01; 08-09-2008 at 01:09 PM.
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Old 08-09-2008, 02:30 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saml01 View Post
I find it interesting that the pump can turn on/off that fast in the simple system and provide pressure instantly.
It can't. PWM is a method for using a digital circuit to simulate an analog voltage. If we have a 12v supply, and we PWM drive a motor at 50% duty cycle, it will be somewhat as though we're driving the motor with 6 volts.

So the PWM duty cycle starts out low, thus the motor turns slowly and produces low pressure. As duty cycle increases, motor voltage rises and pump pressure approaches maximum.


Quote:
I looked through the aquamist and coolingmist sites, hardware is impressive. They both provide a controlled injector, but the price of the unit is a bit excessive. 200 bucks is quite a bit for just the injector.
Yup. Aquamist is no doubt the leader in terms of the design of the system, they're just waaaay too pricey for me.



Quote:
As far as activating the DO kit with the MS. Why would I need a relay driving circuit? Shouldn't I just have to tell the MS which pin the water injection is on and just wire that pin of the relay to it?
Because a WI pump draws several amps. Maybe you could rig a FET (like an EBC) driver to drive the pump, but you'd just be producing needless heat. Far better to use a relay as God intended.



Quote:
What happens if the nozzle is implanted into the manifold and the engine is in vacuum, does the engine create enough vacuum to draw water out of the nozzle when the system is off?
That's why you use a checkvalve whose cracking pressure is greater than the differential of atmo against manifold vacuum. Take this one for example: http://www.alcohol-injection.com/wat...valves-64.html

It requires 16 PSI before the ball will open. You'd have to be several thousand feet below sea level before manifold vacuum could start drawing mixture through that valve.
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Old 08-09-2008, 05:41 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
It can't. PWM is a method for using a digital circuit to simulate an analog voltage. If we have a 12v supply, and we PWM drive a motor at 50% duty cycle, it will be somewhat as though we're driving the motor with 6 volts.
I think I should have made that into a question. Basically, is the pump on when you turn the key but just not providing enough pressure to overcome the check valve until the duty increases?

Quote:

Because a WI pump draws several amps. Maybe you could rig a FET (like an EBC) driver to drive the pump, but you'd just be producing needless heat. Far better to use a relay as God intended.
I think you didn't get me. The DO kit comes with a relay to flip on the pump. Instead of using their pressure switch, why don't I just connect whatever polarity comes from the MS in the place of the pressure switch?

This question ties into the one above, I am basically confused on what turns the pump on, and what increases its duty unless its just on and off.

-----

Youre probably thinking, damn these questions are brain dead. But please bare with me.

Edit:

Just read the install instructions. I think I got how it works. It basically uses the pressure switch to ground 12volts in relation to pressure. This either cuts, or increases power to the pump. Yes or no?

Last edited by Saml01; 08-09-2008 at 06:25 PM.
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Old 08-09-2008, 06:25 PM   #28
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Ok... Couple different levels of WI system.

1: The basic on-off system. This is what you have. A pressure switch flips a relay when MAP goes into boost, so the pump turns on and runs at full power. No scaling, no variation. In vacuum? Pump off. In boost? Pump on. In this system, you can use MS instead of a pressure switch to drive the relay, though it's not really how the MS was meant to be used in a WI situation.

2: The PWM progressive system. A controller responds to changes in MAP by using PWM to vary the drive power to the pump. In vacuum, the pump is off altogether. At the threshold point (usually adjustable in the range of 1-5 PSI or so) the pump begins to turn on at a low level. As MAP increases, pump power increases. Some of these systems also respond to RPM as well as MAP, but still vary delivery by controlling the power to the pump.

3: Valve-based systems. ****. The pump stays off when in vacuum, then at the transition into boost, the pump comes on at full pressure. No water flows yet however. The system meters water by opening a valve (like an injector) and controls the water delivery very precisely. This is how MS was meant to be used, though the valve used must be capable of operating at the same DC and freq. as a regular fuel injector as that's what it's timed to.
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Old 08-09-2008, 06:33 PM   #29
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It all makes sense now.
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Old 08-09-2008, 06:39 PM   #30
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that's how the aquamist systems work. pump is demand based and maintains pressure. if the line pressure drops, the pump comes on--like when the PWM valve is opened.

you can buy the aquamist high speed valves but they're pricey. didn't devilsown make one?
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Old 08-10-2008, 03:32 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Saml01 View Post
I meant Savington. I know you know what youre talking about.
Ohh rofl sorry i was in WOW withdrawalls sam
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Old 08-11-2008, 10:30 AM   #32
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Cooling mist makes a HSV. Its priced a little cheaper than the Aquamist valve but still pretty expensive IIRC
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Old 08-11-2008, 04:43 PM   #33
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Heres a question. Can I make a progressive kit function like a basic kit from the control panel?

Can we have a show of hands what kinda kit people are running.
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Old 08-11-2008, 06:01 PM   #34
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Noob to WI:

Does Aquamist and the other high ends kits use a special valve? Could you use an actual fuel injector controlled by megasquirt? Say if i bought a set of 6 supra injectors, could i use one of the spares to run water?

Would the water corrode/rust/ruin the injector?

Would the injector correctly atomize the water?

Would the on off nature of the injector disrupt water flow to much?

^^Maybe two injectors ran so one was open while one was closed could correct this?

Thanks for the good reading --Alex
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Old 08-11-2008, 06:14 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexandertheOk View Post
Noob to WI:
And News in general.
Does Aquamist and the other high ends kits use a special valve?
Yes.
Could you use an actual fuel injector controlled by megasquirt? Say if i bought a set of 6 supra injectors, could i use one of the spares to run water?

Would the water corrode/rust/ruin the injector?
It's quite possible, moreso if you run methanol.
Would the injector correctly atomize the water?
Most likely yes.

Would the on off nature of the injector disrupt water flow to much?

Doubtful. With one injector at or upstream of the throttle, it should mix reasonably well.

^^Maybe two injectors ran so one was open while one was closed could correct this?
With one on while the other is off, you'd have an effective 100% duty cycle- an injector on all the time.
Thanks for the good reading --Alex
Love 'ya, love yer' show.
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Old 08-12-2008, 12:21 PM   #36
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Thanks Joe!

Do you think that route is worth my time (my time is pretty worthless).

What is so special about those valves anyway?

-- Alex
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Old 08-12-2008, 12:39 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by AlexandertheOk View Post
Thanks Joe!

Do you think that route is worth my time (my time is pretty worthless).

What is so special about those valves anyway?

-- Alex
Im not joe but unless u are gonna go mega hp no a basic kit will be fine. U will save time money and hassle.
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Old 08-12-2008, 12:52 PM   #38
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I'm not planning on mega hp, but i thought with 11:1CR a well controlled WI system would be smart.

Would varying the voltage on the pump as described earlier suffice for say 6lbs of boost and 190-200hp? (on a 11:1 motor with oversized valves)
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Old 08-12-2008, 09:06 PM   #39
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Magna you said you are running a basic kit? What kinda power are you putting down and on what turbo?
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Old 08-13-2008, 11:01 PM   #40
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Im not joe but unless u are gonna go mega hp no a basic kit will be fine. U will save time money and hassle.
Heh. Well, I am Joe, and I agree with Magna.

I think that the DevilsOwn Progressive kit is pretty much the best compromise of price / performance / simplicity. No, it's not as technically perfect as a true 2d mapped system, and PWM drive of the pump isn't as precise as a HSV, but $330 is a hell of a deal for a complete kit. Add a bigger tank in the trunk and you've got a great system.
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