MSPNP2 woes - 95 1.8 turbo
06-21-2015, 08:33 PM
#21
You waste our time then get pissy at the help provided?
You don't learn to tune by begging for help, you read and understand what the hell you are doing. Do you at this point know what deadtime does, why 10ms was allowing the car to start? Why it was so ******* insanely wrong that we mock you? If not, you truly suck and you won't learn anything even if we spoon feed you, so why even bother wasting our time?
Ungrateful lazy ****.
You don't learn to tune by begging for help, you read and understand what the hell you are doing. Do you at this point know what deadtime does, why 10ms was allowing the car to start? Why it was so ******* insanely wrong that we mock you? If not, you truly suck and you won't learn anything even if we spoon feed you, so why even bother wasting our time?
Ungrateful lazy ****.
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06-22-2015, 10:03 AM
#22
Boost Czar
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Thanks. Next time try elaborating on wtf you're talking about instead of providing a generalized stupid answer. You couldn't have answered properly the first time around? Some of us (maybe just me?) don't know anything about tuning, but are trying to learn. Hence why we're asking questions. If you're going to be a dick about it, don't answer. Pretty simple concept isn't it? Otherwise, it's a waste of everyone's time, including yours.
With that said, I'll re-verify the idle fuel map and bring up the values and use the proper dead times and voltage corrections.
With that said, I'll re-verify the idle fuel map and bring up the values and use the proper dead times and voltage corrections.
increasing fuel in your fueling table when it's too lean to idle.
I pointed you in the correct direction, i dont have the time to sit here and tell you exactly what to do. you're a big boy, you should be able to figure it out.
you increased dead times over 10 times longer than the company suggested in order to idle, but then you couldn't get the system leaned out. I suggested doing that dumps in fuel because it changes the fuel calculation by holding the injector open longer to account for the deadtime (the time that injector is opening/closing but not actually injecting fuel).
Fixing your deadtimes made it so you couldn't idle again, where again i suggested the fuel map is bad.
using a just tiny little logic one would probably look at his fuel map (since it was pointed out) and maybe try to simply add fuel.
I don't like hand holding and i dont always have time to spell it out, and don't always want to.
Last edited by Braineack; 06-22-2015 at 11:07 AM.
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06-23-2015, 02:16 PM
#23
Alright. Let's start over. Sorry if I'm a tad short fused, but I'm beyond frustrated with trying to get this application going. I do apologize and would really appreciate assistance.
You mentioned you don't like holding hands or have time to spell things out. I get that. I don't have time to waste in trying to get proper information to help me in understanding what is going wrong with my setup.
Here's all of the information I -do- know...
I've got the following upgrades which have replaced a well idling, yet very late spooling 95 1.8 miata...
Hellafab EL top mount manifold (replaced a begi cast manifold)
Hellafab 3" DP w/ EWG dump tube (replaced a begi 2" divorced dp)
Turbonetics T3 60-Trim turbo (fully reman'd w/watercooled center section and stepped gap piston end ring upgrades) (replaced an ihi turbo that predates the interwebz)
Tial MVS EWG with watercooled top
Flowforce (mustang shelby 500GT) 610cc Injectors (deadtime = .63ms@13.2V, .116 ms/v battery correction) (replaced OEM injectors)
Megasquirt PNP 2 for my application (mm9495) - Using the Miata Turbo basemap as a starting point from DIYAT (replaced the OEM ECU, begi FMU, Apexi ignition controller and knock sensor - all piggy backed to the OEM ECU)
AEM UEGO wideband wired to the o2 ECU wiring connection
GM IAT sensor - wired to the proper wires on the OEM MAF harness (2nd and 3rd pins from the right)
DIYAutotune EBC - also wired correctly
New spark wires (denso)
New iridium NGK plugs (7 steps colder)
Timing was set on the CAS to 10-degrees as required by the MS ECU.
Now, onto my problem...
The car won't idle or even start at the injector deadtimes mentioned above (req fuel set @ 5.0 in MS engine constants). That is, unless I throw a **** load of fuel in the the fuel map or change the injector characteristics, where it won't idle below 1500-2000rpms (not good). I've adjusted the idle set valve on the TB to the most closed point as possible, but it's not changing the idle speed. I thought it was a problem with the GM IAT sensor, so I got a new one yesterday and triple checked the wiring, everything is supposed to be working. I've set the MS ECU to use fixed timing (10 degrees), turned on autotune to see what it would do, which resulted in nothing but the idle speed going up and the AFR going super lean (15-range) or super rich (10-range). Even switching it to use the ignition map results in nothing but a wonky as **** idle and it going really lean.
I'm at a complete loss as to what to do to fix this problem. I've checked and re-checked all the injector, IAT and ECU wiring and checked for vacuum leaks... Everything seems to be just fine hardware wise (boost gauge reads -15 in vac). My last ditch effort is to put the OEM injectors back in and see if I can get it at least idling properly. However, even if it does, they'll choke with the amount of boost/power I want to achieve (230whp - 11-12psi).
The basemap I got from DIYAT wasn't changed other than a few basic settings (injector deadtimes and characteristics, the REQfuel which matches my setup (1800cc displacement, 610cc injector flow, 4 cyl, 14.7 AFR range). It will run stupid rich if I tell the injectors to have a dead time of 2.5ms, obviously... And the car will idle at those deadtimes, but nothing below 1500rpm. Same deal if I tell it to give them more fuel in the fuelmap in the idle range.
The other thing I'm thinking that maybe the problem is the OEM FPR... However, I'm grasping at straws here due to frustration. It was working fine before, as the car idled perfectly with the old piggy back stuffs.
You mentioned you don't like holding hands or have time to spell things out. I get that. I don't have time to waste in trying to get proper information to help me in understanding what is going wrong with my setup.
Here's all of the information I -do- know...
I've got the following upgrades which have replaced a well idling, yet very late spooling 95 1.8 miata...
Hellafab EL top mount manifold (replaced a begi cast manifold)
Hellafab 3" DP w/ EWG dump tube (replaced a begi 2" divorced dp)
Turbonetics T3 60-Trim turbo (fully reman'd w/watercooled center section and stepped gap piston end ring upgrades) (replaced an ihi turbo that predates the interwebz)
Tial MVS EWG with watercooled top
Flowforce (mustang shelby 500GT) 610cc Injectors (deadtime = .63ms@13.2V, .116 ms/v battery correction) (replaced OEM injectors)
Megasquirt PNP 2 for my application (mm9495) - Using the Miata Turbo basemap as a starting point from DIYAT (replaced the OEM ECU, begi FMU, Apexi ignition controller and knock sensor - all piggy backed to the OEM ECU)
AEM UEGO wideband wired to the o2 ECU wiring connection
GM IAT sensor - wired to the proper wires on the OEM MAF harness (2nd and 3rd pins from the right)
DIYAutotune EBC - also wired correctly
New spark wires (denso)
New iridium NGK plugs (7 steps colder)
Timing was set on the CAS to 10-degrees as required by the MS ECU.
Now, onto my problem...
The car won't idle or even start at the injector deadtimes mentioned above (req fuel set @ 5.0 in MS engine constants). That is, unless I throw a **** load of fuel in the the fuel map or change the injector characteristics, where it won't idle below 1500-2000rpms (not good). I've adjusted the idle set valve on the TB to the most closed point as possible, but it's not changing the idle speed. I thought it was a problem with the GM IAT sensor, so I got a new one yesterday and triple checked the wiring, everything is supposed to be working. I've set the MS ECU to use fixed timing (10 degrees), turned on autotune to see what it would do, which resulted in nothing but the idle speed going up and the AFR going super lean (15-range) or super rich (10-range). Even switching it to use the ignition map results in nothing but a wonky as **** idle and it going really lean.
I'm at a complete loss as to what to do to fix this problem. I've checked and re-checked all the injector, IAT and ECU wiring and checked for vacuum leaks... Everything seems to be just fine hardware wise (boost gauge reads -15 in vac). My last ditch effort is to put the OEM injectors back in and see if I can get it at least idling properly. However, even if it does, they'll choke with the amount of boost/power I want to achieve (230whp - 11-12psi).
The basemap I got from DIYAT wasn't changed other than a few basic settings (injector deadtimes and characteristics, the REQfuel which matches my setup (1800cc displacement, 610cc injector flow, 4 cyl, 14.7 AFR range). It will run stupid rich if I tell the injectors to have a dead time of 2.5ms, obviously... And the car will idle at those deadtimes, but nothing below 1500rpm. Same deal if I tell it to give them more fuel in the fuelmap in the idle range.
The other thing I'm thinking that maybe the problem is the OEM FPR... However, I'm grasping at straws here due to frustration. It was working fine before, as the car idled perfectly with the old piggy back stuffs.
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06-23-2015, 02:35 PM
#25
Tweaking Enginerd
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-15in is what I get in Leadville Colorado ... this number is telling you something.
The IAC shouldn't even be needed to get the car to idle in the 800's. You should be able to disconnect it completely and have the car idle down.
In my opinion you need to re-baseline the hardware by reducing the number of changes. Specifically, go back to the original injectors. Don't worry about the ultimate power goal at this point.
Double check you fuel pressure at the rail.
The IAC shouldn't even be needed to get the car to idle in the 800's. You should be able to disconnect it completely and have the car idle down.
In my opinion you need to re-baseline the hardware by reducing the number of changes. Specifically, go back to the original injectors. Don't worry about the ultimate power goal at this point.
Double check you fuel pressure at the rail.
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06-24-2015, 04:59 PM
#26
Update:
I swapped back the stock injectors, created a completely new project in TS and loaded up the miata turbo basemap from DIYAT (this was done twice when I was running the 610cc injectors). The ******* car idles perfectly between 536-700 rpm right off the first start-up. Autotune corrected it and it now idles between 580-620rpm. I took it for a spin and it spools up to 11.5psi (current wg spring setup), where autotune adjusts the fuel/timing as it runs.
Obviously the injectors were causing all the problems. But wtf... Others are apparently running them just fine.
I swapped back the stock injectors, created a completely new project in TS and loaded up the miata turbo basemap from DIYAT (this was done twice when I was running the 610cc injectors). The ******* car idles perfectly between 536-700 rpm right off the first start-up. Autotune corrected it and it now idles between 580-620rpm. I took it for a spin and it spools up to 11.5psi (current wg spring setup), where autotune adjusts the fuel/timing as it runs.
Obviously the injectors were causing all the problems. But wtf... Others are apparently running them just fine.
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06-24-2015, 05:14 PM
#27
I highly, highly doubt that. You can't be the only person in ever to not be able to run GT500 injectors.
It's much more likely you still have no idea what you are doing. The curve on the new technology injectors is a lot different than the old stock pieces of ****. These injectors are so awesome, I was able to flat my whole fuel map out to 175, and autotuned it in from there, I don't think I have any values lower than 160 or higher than 200, SUPER flat VE table. Stock DIYautotune VE table is garbage.
So, learn to tune, again. If you'd go read the megamanual instead of posting stupid stuff and installing useless injectors you'd know what was going on by now.
Also, that's a retarded low idle. Should be 850 rpm or more. Autotune NEVER adjusts timing, and you are ******* dumb, 11.5psi on stock injectors?
Go read, please.
It's much more likely you still have no idea what you are doing. The curve on the new technology injectors is a lot different than the old stock pieces of ****. These injectors are so awesome, I was able to flat my whole fuel map out to 175, and autotuned it in from there, I don't think I have any values lower than 160 or higher than 200, SUPER flat VE table. Stock DIYautotune VE table is garbage.
So, learn to tune, again. If you'd go read the megamanual instead of posting stupid stuff and installing useless injectors you'd know what was going on by now.
Also, that's a retarded low idle. Should be 850 rpm or more. Autotune NEVER adjusts timing, and you are ******* dumb, 11.5psi on stock injectors?
Go read, please.
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06-24-2015, 05:17 PM
#28
Tweaking Enginerd
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Measure the resistance of each of the new injector coils.
What injector differential pressure was used to generate the characterization numbers?
Do you have a spare stock fuel pressure regulator?
Are you running the stock fuel pump?
What injector differential pressure was used to generate the characterization numbers?
Do you have a spare stock fuel pressure regulator?
Are you running the stock fuel pump?
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06-24-2015, 06:29 PM
#29
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
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<p>I'm running GT500 injectors with the posted dead times and my car runs awesome. Idles easily around 14.6-15. Cranks and starts right up. </p><p>When people ask about your fuel map show them</p><p>When people ask to see your tune show them.</p><p>People can't help you without seeing what is going on.</p>
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06-24-2015, 08:58 PM
#31
Tweaking Enginerd
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Cough.... Fuel pressure ... cough
Potentially explains both the crazy dead time and the non-engine grenade at 12psi with stockers
Include battery voltage at the injectors (while running of course)
Potentially explains both the crazy dead time and the non-engine grenade at 12psi with stockers
Include battery voltage at the injectors (while running of course)
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