Because 150whp isn't enough...
 

Well, I thought I'd be satisfied with a nice, reliable, problem-free 150whp but it's put me in an interesting predicament at the local track days. I'm too fast to play with the other miatas, but too slow to keep up with anyone else in the advanced group. I enjoy driving more than wrenching, so I'd like this to be a reliability-focused build. You tell me if anything I plan for doesn't jive there. I would also prefer to only buy everything once.

Current setup is 02 engine and 5 speed in a 95 chassis. Flat top manifold, RB header, borla catback. I haven't ordered anything yet, but I'm about to set my credit card on fire so I thought I'd do a sanity check first.

Stage 1 - Track reliable on stock engine and 5 speed
* Trackspeed efr6258 kit
* Flowforce 610660cc inj
* Coolant reroute (keep the 02 head gasket?), big radiator, ducting and hood vents
* FM stage 2 happy meal
* Oil cooler
* Fab9 intercooler stage 1 Precision 350hp intercooler
* FM damper
* Have a local shop put together a 3" exhaust
* 220ish whp/tq? I'm not opposed to having a low boost track map and a higher boost street map - anyone else do this or is it a bad idea?
==== Is the 5 speed torque or power (heat dissipation) limited? I've read conflicting reports. Assuming I can keep the EGT's and engine oil temps down, is there any reason not to pull a BMW and run 220wtq from as low to as high as I can? EBC magic... I also have a spare 5spd in my garage.

Stage 2 - Track reliable with built engine and 6 speed, 3.9 rear gear
* 949 supertech/xx pistons/rings
* A beam rods Rods of some kind
* FM engine rebuilt kit
* ARP main studs
* Billet oil pump gears
* Run moar boost
* 300whp? 300wtq?
* This is a while out, so more as that gets closer. Just want to make sure everything I buy now has enough headroom with this in mind.

Any good sources online for IC tubing? I've got a friend who does some amazing aluminum welding who has agreed to help with some of the fabrication.
Also, I've heard conflicting stories about whether the flat top is worth it on an FI engine - would I be better off selling it and putting a gutted stock VTCS mani back on and using that money for something else?
Will the 610s be enough to max out a 6 speed or should I look for more? Deutschwerks 700? ID 1000? No E85 where I live.
Any experience with turbo blankets? How's this compare to a sheet metal shield?

As for budget... I prefer quality and reliability and I'm willing to spend extra for it, but not past the point of diminishing returns. I also fancy technology (thus the EFR). Hoping to design this as a complete system to save money through doing everything right the first time :noob: So far it's looking like about $5k. Thanks in advance..

Reroute without a HG swap seems like a bad idea on the face of it, but I've done a couple of track days at ~210whp with a reroute on an '02 longblock and the world hasn't ended yet. I still don't suggest it in the long-term.

Look hard at the Precision 350hp core instead of the Vibrant (Fab9) core. More turbulators = more better. I was super underwhelmed with Vibrant's stuff at PRI last year.

Low-boost track map and high-boost street map is a great idea. Easier to keep the car cool and less stress on components on track, but a little more punch on the street. I plan to do the same.

There's probably not enough empirical data to determine whether the 5-speed dies from torque or power/heat. I killed one from abuse at 200whp, though, so beware. If you are driving the car to/from the track, I would seriously consider a 6sp upgrade when you do the clutch.


Meh. A-beams are cool in an N/A motor that needs to rev to the moon. In a turbo car, that $500 is better spent in lots of different ways. Spend it on ceramic coatings (internal and external), a better radiator, valve springs/retainers, a billet oil pump, etc, etc. The Manleys we have used since 2010 have been flawless and they are both stronger and cheaper.

At 300whp, ARP main studs are required. The oil pump is an inexpensive upgrade - about a $165 premium over a new OEM oil pump last time I checked, which is cheap insurance. I would strongly advise doing valve springs in a track-prepped forced induction car, even if you don't plan to rev it past the factory redline. Valve springs + rods makes the motor immune to missed shifts, which is a good feature to have.

I get all my aluminum tube from Columbia River Mandrel. There are probably cheaper places but they are consistent and high-quality. Beadroll the ends and use good US-made worm drive clamps or t-bolts.
Flattop is absolutely worth it. Stock IMs are a restriction above 5000rpm even at 275whp. You can get to 300whp on a VICS manifold, but not much past.
The FF640s (used to be called 610s) will max a 6-speed on gas, yes.
Turbo blankets are less desirable than an overhead shield IMO.

You mentioned elsewhere that you're waiting for an email from me - if that's still true resend it. I thought I was all caught up as of this morning :)

I think you are on the right path.....but the efr is going to be FULL HARD ON a stock bottom end. If you can really prevent the intoxicating boost, go for it. But I warn you, it's a drug. It really is. I thought 10 psi would be fine, then 12, then 15 then 17, ya that should do it! Nope. 20.
I would also go for the 750 or 1000 Id's first go.

That's all I have.

Lol it is an extremely addicting slippery slope.. I guess that's why "ryansmoneypit" is your username lol.

Re: Turbulators, Vibrant came out with higher density cores last year right? Earlier it was indistinguishable from ebay cores where you could see completely down the long end.

I'm glad you guys reminded me of the VVT HG + Reroute. I recently dropped a used '01 longblock into the red car. It has a reroute. On Saturday, I was out on track and had to cut a session short due to water temps (it was over 100F). That never happened before with the '99 head. I think I need to swap the HG.

+1. The FAB9 IC is a street car unit and is meant for retaining stock AC. It's location (as far forward as possible) is really disadvantageous for cooling -- it's an air-blocking brick. I would shy away from it on a dedicated track car where I'm not worried about retaining the condenser.

siliconeintakes.com is a great place to pick up IC pipe stuff.

You can get the Vibrant core that Fab9 uses on Amazon for around $160 shipped to your house. If you can fab up brackets it is a good way to save some money.

I'm basically going down the same route. We can be friends. I'm going with the Supermiata damper, ID1000s (lightly used), and FM1 happy meal (lightly used). Was going to keep the 5-speed for now, but may look at getting a 6-speed since I need to swap in a Torsen anyway. Best to look for the 3.9 in the first place probably.

I won't be able to due any work on the car in earnest until October, so I'm waiting to see if Andrew gets the rest of his kit put together by then. Otherwise I may go the DIY intercooler route myself.

Wasn't there a talk about fab9 having an upgraded core?

I may have seen the new ones at SEMA and I still wasn't impressed. They use an offset fin design which is better than nothing, but the Precision core is fully louvered the whole way, and it makes a huge difference. I am doing IC testing right now and the Precision 350 is far better than the Treadstone staggered design that I believe Vibrant switched to. On a 300whp setup, the intercooler is not where you want to cheap out.

I am running the Fab9 intercooler and it blocks the nose of my car like crazy. I like the way it mounts, I like the way it looks, and I haven't had reason to complain about the way it performs as an intercooler, but it's killing my under hood temps.

I cut the plastic bumper bit to open up space. The inside of the intercooler looked dense though, I'm curious how these cores imperially stack up with precisions extra girth and width. Obviously tried and true, but I'm not trying to stir another intercooler debate

Vibrant 12831 (550hp)
22"W x 9"H x 3.25"


Precision PIN051-2160 (600hp)
24"x8"x3.5"


That's a topic for another thread, though.

Do you tow or drive to the track? Where are your upgraded brakes? I needed big brakes at about 170whp.

My advice- stay N/A or get a tow vehicle and trailer. Getting stuck at the track sucks and it will happen with a forced induction Miata... that said- 220whp is real fast, 300 would be nuts. Also- I think you need to double your budget... Radiator~600, Brakes~1000, Oil cooler~400, Turbo+exhaust+IC~3000, Fuel Injectors~500, Clutch, 6-speed, 3.9 Torsen etc etc etc. Shit spirals out of control real fast. Ask me how I know haha.

Good luck!

Alright - FAB9 out, Precision in. As for the email, Sav - don't worry about it, I asked basically the same questions there as I did in this thread. I sent it as a response to our email chain back in April though, so maybe it got caught there somewhere.

Currently I drive, I've got AAA and the tracks I go to are all within my tow distance.. but I'd rather not use that. I will get an SUV and trailer eventually. Also, my $5k rough budget was for this "stage 1" portion only. For brakes, I'll stick with the stockers until I wear through the DTC60's I've got and or my wallet recovers.

As for the coolant reroute head gasket discussion... the temp sensor is at the back of the head, which is the purported problem area, so would it be worth trying with the stock HG and coolant routing? How likely is a hotspot that doesn't show up on the temp gauge to kill the engine?

And, for your viewing pleasure, my last track day at Road Atlanta. Yes, I'm wearing shorts, no that's not allowed, I forgot to put my pants back on before going out :noob: It was 97F and humid.

Nice driving- I think you'd be a lot happier N/A with just a 6-speed... way tighter gearing to keep you higher in the revs. And you'll be buying a 6-speed anyways if you go FI.


I say run it with the stock HG and watch the temp gauge... My first FI track day I could watch the gauge start to move (I had stock radiator+ Coolant RR), do a cool down lap and then repeat... my engine did not explode.

And my second track day with FI (when I'd fixed the engine overheating) my brakes almost melted. Carbotech XP10 pads with ducting. I very nearly hit another car in the pit area due to glazed pads.

Cage? There comes a time . . . .

Not on a car which gets street-driven

Sav, you've got an order. Check the shipping comments.


Also, the Porsche Sport Driving School is pretty awesome.

So apparently ordering from Trackspeed means something unexpected and expensive will happen elsewhere in your life. A CV joint on my DD unceremoniously shat itself on my way home the other day. So I get to DD the Miata until I have time to fix that... need to replace the bushings, tie rods and ball joints at the same time.

What about a few bucks into suspension, aero, and a little bit into the engine for a touch more power? I suggest this because I'm in a bit of the same predicament (faster than the rest of the Miatas, not fast enough to keep up with the GT3s), but aero and a few more bolt-ons and tune have bridged the gap. I just got some Hohos, so I should be able to bug them quite a bit (similar HP as your current build, but gutted and caged).

Agreed (and I've done the same), but only wish that it would make it immune from the MONEY shift (i.e. 5-->2).

I've gone about as far as I can before hitting big $ for little gain in the engine (next would be cams?). I do plan a plywood splitter and ducktail. Already running spec miata suspension, which isn't great but does the job for now. No amount of suspension or aero will shorten the gap between turn 7 and 10 at road Atlanta though!

I could do some weight reduction and throw on dot slicks but it's still a street car too.

Can't you do the square top as well for higher peak?

Already have one

In related news, going on 2 months later and still don't have all the parts I ordered(waiting on downpipe still). I'm impressed with the quality of the manifold and water/oil lines. Having to send individual reminders to ship each part is less impressive. I understand it's a small operation - I'm a small business owner myself - but I would expect a little more.

Also still waiting to see if I can study the shop vvt map since my setup will be so similar.

It will always amaze me at how much work goes into making a reliable track car

I think that's an unfair assumption on TSE that you're holding. When you ordered the kit two months ago everybody knew that there was still items waiting to be produced/in production. Its never fun to wait and i know that isn't a strong suit of myself but the end result will be worth it.

But the bottom line is he hit snags with production which he states in his thread about the kit and being a one man organization is never easy. Give it time and the results will be stellar. I am sure he could rush production and get the product out sooner but will it be what everybody is hoping for.... Probably not!

I took a little longer than I wanted to get all the NA downpipes shipped out due to MRLS prep, and then somehow forgot to ship Humjaba's when I did the rest of them earlier this week. Mea culpa. Everything should be out the door by now, so if you're reading this and you don't have a tracking number, harass me via email and phone.

I work in engineering, I understand snags and delays. More of a communication thing I guess - maybe a mailing list of people who have orders outstanding so everyone gets updated? I don't visit the forums all that frequently so maybe I missed the updates, but even in-stock items didn't ship until after multiple emails. No harm done, just suggesting that some more pro-active communication would go a long way.

Ran at the local 1/8 mile drag strip just for kicks and grins. Already tossed the slip but the best run of the night was 9.7s @ 72mph with a 2.1s 60' time.

Still sitting on all the turbo parts - need to get a clutch and other bits ordered. Life has been busy.

Well, I finally got around to starting on this. Got the new clutch in, injectors in and I was starting on the turbo tonight. First order of business is moving the wastegate actuator bracket... and this fucker feels like it's held in with red Loctite. PB blaster, brand new 4mm allen wrench and it won't budge. I don't know what to do. I did my best to hold the key perpendicular when applying pressure, trying to ease it up and it won't budge. Spun once, which means it's probably fucked. Ideas? I really don't want to take the whole turbo apart and drill this stupid POS

Get yourself a 3/16 allen key, throw it in the freezer for a few hours. Heat the bolt up with a torch. Hopefully you can then tap the key into the head of the bolt. Leave it for a few min's to let the key warm up in the bolt. This should friction-fit them together and let you get a much grunt as possible on the bolt. Cross all fingers etc. and give it a twist.

You want impact to get a tight bolt to come loose, not easy torque application.

I'll just revamp my last line then; " Cross all fingers etc. and give it a twist WHACK. All of the above will just minimize the risk of stripping the head of the bolt is my though.

I thought about it some more. I have had great success using this type tool:

This one's from Walmart


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...c2761ea064.jpg

Put some heat on that bolt? If you suspect Red Loctite and there is nothing around there that could be damaged by a torch, getting the bolt up to 500F should loosen the Loctite.

There's no loctite there. Just a bolt that's very tight. Have you tried removing the other two? If you can get the other two off you can use the entire bracket to leverage the stripped fastener counter-clockwise. The tension of the bolt will work in your favor.

This trick has saved my ass MANY times. If you can pivot the bracket, which it looks like you have plenty of room to do (obviously in a counter-clockwise direction) It'll break loose easily.

I managed to break the other two loose. Ended up taking the compressor housing off and was able to remove the stripped screw with an EZ-out. Nobody local had a flat head cap screw with a hex head (only phillips, which is worse) so it's a regular socket head cap screw and a washer in the middle bolt hole now. I used anti-seize so this doesn't happen again (not that I should need to ever move the wastegate bracket now), unless someone tells me that's a stupid idea.

Oil cooler is on the way, but I've got a track day at Atlanta Motorsports Park in the first week of March, so I decided to throw the car back together sans-turbo. :cry: It gives me enough time to break in the clutch and get <100kpa fueling tuned in on the new injectors, at least.

Life pro tip: remember to tighten your lugnuts before driving off.

Anyway, I did some driving around last night on the new clutch/flywheel and injectors. Had to modify the cranking IAC valve duty cycle because the RPM's drop so fast after starting, and the crank-to-run time. As for fueling, is it normal that my entire VE table would need to be cut in approximately half? I put the average of the 4 injector flow measurements with the dead time recommended by flow force.

If Req_Fuel is reset properly, the changes in the VE table should be small, not 50% change. This presumes the original Req_Fuel was correct, and not fudged.

After putting in the injector size, did you click the "Required Fuel" button and make sure both boxes show the changed value?

I have worked on my share of track Miata's and the turbo ones start to lose the turn the key and drive everytime aspect. Just be prepared to work on the car more and have some issues. The turbo will add a bunch of heat to the engine bay and things will start to fail. Expect to replace the exhaust manifold studs with something more heat tolerant like inconel. Also, depending on which turbo you go with, carry a spare wastegate actuator as they can fail on track cars leaving you with no boost, especially if the manifold studs stretch from heat and leak exhaust onto the turbo.

He already has Incone studs, because he purchased a turbo kit from the shop that pioneered the use of Inconel studs in turbocharged Miatas. Your concerns are not relevant to this thread.

Plus 1 cat.

I did not see them listed in his parts list and I was not aware that your package came with the studs.

Made me lol at work.

Yep that did it... didn't realize that had to be done as well. Much closer on the old fuel map now.
Now, this is kind of strange. On a restarting at temp after sitting for ~10 minutes it dies instantly unless I give it throttle, and then it runs really lean for a while (ase / wue?). Once it's been running for ~30-45 seconds it idles just fine at 14.7. If I kill it and restart immediately it's fine. Will need to investigate more but the laptop battery died. I see the table for cranking IAC duty cycle - is the crank-to-run time supposed to be the delay from that to closed-loop idle?

I am slightly ashamed to admit, I have done this before.... Happened with a customers minivan a few years back, thankfully i only got a couple hundred feet, and heard the clunking of the rims loosening against the hub!

The lean hot restart is a thing. Something heat soaks. I have yet to do the research to figure out the solution yet. I know other people here smarter than I know how to fix it, but wanted you to know you are not going crazy.

No worries :) Yes, in the past, turbocharged Miatas have not been the most reliable things out there. I set out to change that with my turbo kit, calling on a decade of experience with turbocharged Miatas of all shapes and sizes. If you start with quality components designed by someone with a decade of experience building race-grade turbocharged Miatas, you may discover that the end result is substantially more reliable than your average steel-stud cast-iron turbo setup. :)

Yeah, I had the problem solved before. Just trying to figure out now that I've got new injectors and a lighter flywheel how I should fix it. IAT heat soak wouldn't have changed from before (the typical problem that causes lean hot restart)

I have the Yellow's, which are notorious for hot restart. Had some hopes that going to a return type fueling system on my 99 would help. It did not. There have been some hints that the FF 640's have some of the issue as well. Here remains my fix, and it works pretty well. Taper is in Cycles, not Seconds (set at bottom of "Cranking/Startup Settings" ASE Count Units):


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...6f28269981.png

By the time the taper ends at high temp, EGO has taken over. EGO has 15% authority in the idle range.

Thanks for posting those up. It seems to have helped a bit - still feels like a bit of a bandaid, and I have some tweaking to do but it's in the right direction for now.
Anyone running a Ford or GM MAF on their turbo car? :naughty:

Yes, it's a bandaid, but I don't know of any other control method available in MS3. And realistically, this is an issue that occurs fairly infrequently, and for short duration. One other thing I have considered, but not tried, is to allow the fans to run with engine off. Unfortunately, this would be of little value because the key must be ON.

There's a checkbox to ignore MAT readings during start... will give that a shot. I wouldn't call it infrequent though - I spent all day yesterday in town with the car and every start required some throttle to keep the RPM's from dropping too quickly after the first "light." I'll try to get it on a log this evening.

Agreed, worth taming.

Check your MAT correction table. It should be almost flat at 100% from 70*F and higher. Therefore, it should not be affecting your AFR even if you have heat soak on the sensor.

BUT, check a log and see if your MAT is high at restart, or not.

Okay so who can point out to me what's wrong with this picture? Just tuning the N/A sections now, haven't messed with it above 4k RPM because it's running out of room to change (this is me using VEAL). Obviously can't go above 110kpa line because I'm still n/a.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...b516c6689d.png

I'm not running out of injector duty cycle - seems to be something off with the required fuel calculation?

what do you mean by "running out of room to change"?

Actually you can't go above the 99 row...

VE tables are all just a part of the pulse width calculations, keep adding numbers. Usually with the correct injector dead times I idle in the 30s and see a peak of 120s.

Looking at my final FF640 map from Acamas, I was seeing idle in the ~90s and a 99kpa row of 110-115. With a 43psi system, 125 is probably about right. Boosted cells were in the 150-160 range at 200kpa.

By running out of room I mean the limit is set to 125 for VE. I suppose practically speaking I can raise that, but does anyone here think that a stock-head stock-cam Miata is at 125% volumetric efficiency? I know some of the better n/a Honda engines can break 100 but I'm only making 150whp so obviously that's false. Any hypotheses?
Here's my deadtime table - Andrew I copied it from the map you sent me that I'm guessing had 615's in it. Are they the same? FF's website doesn't have the deadtimes as a % of voltage and I was too lazy to punch all the number into excel..
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...fd42cf7912.png

if you're not using incorporate AFR in your fueling algorithm, your VE table is not a "VE" table.

Hmm... so looking this up in the manual:
I suppose it's just disabled by default for simplicity?

I believe "Include AFR target" was a feature implemented a few years ago, so I would guess they didn't want to make it default for when people port old VE maps to new ones. It's certainly nice to have it on. Then you can test different AFR's without adjusting the VE map.