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Old 08-03-2016, 09:55 PM   #1
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Default Because 150whp isn't enough...

Well, I thought I'd be satisfied with a nice, reliable, problem-free 150whp but it's put me in an interesting predicament at the local track days. I'm too fast to play with the other miatas, but too slow to keep up with anyone else in the advanced group. I enjoy driving more than wrenching, so I'd like this to be a reliability-focused build. You tell me if anything I plan for doesn't jive there. I would also prefer to only buy everything once.

Current setup is 02 engine and 5 speed in a 95 chassis. Flat top manifold, RB header, borla catback. I haven't ordered anything yet, but I'm about to set my credit card on fire so I thought I'd do a sanity check first.

Stage 1 - Track reliable on stock engine and 5 speed
* Trackspeed efr6258 kit
* Flowforce 610660cc inj
* Coolant reroute (keep the 02 head gasket?), big radiator, ducting and hood vents
* FM stage 2 happy meal
* Oil cooler
* Fab9 intercooler stage 1 Precision 350hp intercooler
* FM damper
* Have a local shop put together a 3" exhaust
* 220ish whp/tq? I'm not opposed to having a low boost track map and a higher boost street map - anyone else do this or is it a bad idea?
==== Is the 5 speed torque or power (heat dissipation) limited? I've read conflicting reports. Assuming I can keep the EGT's and engine oil temps down, is there any reason not to pull a BMW and run 220wtq from as low to as high as I can? EBC magic... I also have a spare 5spd in my garage.

Stage 2 - Track reliable with built engine and 6 speed, 3.9 rear gear
* 949 supertech/xx pistons/rings
* A beam rods Rods of some kind
* FM engine rebuilt kit
* ARP main studs
* Billet oil pump gears
* Run moar boost
* 300whp? 300wtq?
* This is a while out, so more as that gets closer. Just want to make sure everything I buy now has enough headroom with this in mind.

Any good sources online for IC tubing? I've got a friend who does some amazing aluminum welding who has agreed to help with some of the fabrication.
Also, I've heard conflicting stories about whether the flat top is worth it on an FI engine - would I be better off selling it and putting a gutted stock VTCS mani back on and using that money for something else?
Will the 610s be enough to max out a 6 speed or should I look for more? Deutschwerks 700? ID 1000? No E85 where I live.
Any experience with turbo blankets? How's this compare to a sheet metal shield?

As for budget... I prefer quality and reliability and I'm willing to spend extra for it, but not past the point of diminishing returns. I also fancy technology (thus the EFR). Hoping to design this as a complete system to save money through doing everything right the first time So far it's looking like about $5k. Thanks in advance..

Last edited by Uncle Humjaba; 08-05-2016 at 05:26 PM.
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Old 08-03-2016, 10:25 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Humjaba View Post
* Coolant reroute (keep the 02 head gasket?), big radiator, ducting and hood vents
* Fab9 intercooler stage 1
* 220ish whp/tq? I'm not opposed to having a low boost track map and a higher boost street map - anyone else do this or is it a bad idea?
==== Is the 5 speed torque or power (heat dissipation) limited? I've read conflicting reports.
Reroute without a HG swap seems like a bad idea on the face of it, but I've done a couple of track days at ~210whp with a reroute on an '02 longblock and the world hasn't ended yet. I still don't suggest it in the long-term.

Look hard at the Precision 350hp core instead of the Vibrant (Fab9) core. More turbulators = more better. I was super underwhelmed with Vibrant's stuff at PRI last year.

Low-boost track map and high-boost street map is a great idea. Easier to keep the car cool and less stress on components on track, but a little more punch on the street. I plan to do the same.

There's probably not enough empirical data to determine whether the 5-speed dies from torque or power/heat. I killed one from abuse at 200whp, though, so beware. If you are driving the car to/from the track, I would seriously consider a 6sp upgrade when you do the clutch.


Quote:
Stage 2 - Track reliable with built engine and 6 speed, 3.9 rear gear
* A beam rods
Meh. A-beams are cool in an N/A motor that needs to rev to the moon. In a turbo car, that $500 is better spent in lots of different ways. Spend it on ceramic coatings (internal and external), a better radiator, valve springs/retainers, a billet oil pump, etc, etc. The Manleys we have used since 2010 have been flawless and they are both stronger and cheaper.

At 300whp, ARP main studs are required. The oil pump is an inexpensive upgrade - about a $165 premium over a new OEM oil pump last time I checked, which is cheap insurance. I would strongly advise doing valve springs in a track-prepped forced induction car, even if you don't plan to rev it past the factory redline. Valve springs + rods makes the motor immune to missed shifts, which is a good feature to have.

I get all my aluminum tube from Columbia River Mandrel. There are probably cheaper places but they are consistent and high-quality. Beadroll the ends and use good US-made worm drive clamps or t-bolts.
Flattop is absolutely worth it. Stock IMs are a restriction above 5000rpm even at 275whp. You can get to 300whp on a VICS manifold, but not much past.
The FF640s (used to be called 610s) will max a 6-speed on gas, yes.
Turbo blankets are less desirable than an overhead shield IMO.

You mentioned elsewhere that you're waiting for an email from me - if that's still true resend it. I thought I was all caught up as of this morning
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Old 08-03-2016, 10:34 PM   #3
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I think you are on the right path.....but the efr is going to be FULL HARD ON a stock bottom end. If you can really prevent the intoxicating boost, go for it. But I warn you, it's a drug. It really is. I thought 10 psi would be fine, then 12, then 15 then 17, ya that should do it! Nope. 20.
I would also go for the 750 or 1000 Id's first go.

That's all I have.
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Old 08-04-2016, 04:47 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by ryansmoneypit View Post
I think you are on the right path.....but the efr is going to be FULL HARD ON a stock bottom end. If you can really prevent the intoxicating boost, go for it. But I warn you, it's a drug. It really is. I thought 10 psi would be fine, then 12, then 15 then 17, ya that should do it! Nope. 20.
I would also go for the 750 or 1000 Id's first go.

That's all I have.
Lol it is an extremely addicting slippery slope.. I guess that's why "ryansmoneypit" is your username lol.
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Old 08-04-2016, 07:22 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Reroute without a HG swap seems like a bad idea on the face of it, but I've done a couple of track days at ~210whp with a reroute on an '02 longblock and the world hasn't ended yet. I still don't suggest it in the long-term.

Look hard at the Precision 350hp core instead of the Vibrant (Fab9) core. More turbulators = more better. I was super underwhelmed with Vibrant's stuff at PRI last year.


Re: Turbulators, Vibrant came out with higher density cores last year right? Earlier it was indistinguishable from ebay cores where you could see completely down the long end.
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Old 08-04-2016, 10:05 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Reroute without a HG swap seems like a bad idea on the face of it, but I've done a couple of track days at ~210whp with a reroute on an '02 longblock and the world hasn't ended yet. I still don't suggest it in the long-term.
I'm glad you guys reminded me of the VVT HG + Reroute. I recently dropped a used '01 longblock into the red car. It has a reroute. On Saturday, I was out on track and had to cut a session short due to water temps (it was over 100F). That never happened before with the '99 head. I think I need to swap the HG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Look hard at the Precision 350hp core instead of the Vibrant (Fab9) core. More turbulators = more better. I was super underwhelmed with Vibrant's stuff at PRI last year.
+1. The FAB9 IC is a street car unit and is meant for retaining stock AC. It's location (as far forward as possible) is really disadvantageous for cooling -- it's an air-blocking brick. I would shy away from it on a dedicated track car where I'm not worried about retaining the condenser.

siliconeintakes.com is a great place to pick up IC pipe stuff.

Last edited by hornetball; 08-04-2016 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 08-04-2016, 10:10 AM   #7
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You can get the Vibrant core that Fab9 uses on Amazon for around $160 shipped to your house. If you can fab up brackets it is a good way to save some money.
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Old 08-04-2016, 10:54 AM   #8
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I'm basically going down the same route. We can be friends. I'm going with the Supermiata damper, ID1000s (lightly used), and FM1 happy meal (lightly used). Was going to keep the 5-speed for now, but may look at getting a 6-speed since I need to swap in a Torsen anyway. Best to look for the 3.9 in the first place probably.

I won't be able to due any work on the car in earnest until October, so I'm waiting to see if Andrew gets the rest of his kit put together by then. Otherwise I may go the DIY intercooler route myself.
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Old 08-04-2016, 12:20 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
You can get the Vibrant core that Fab9 uses on Amazon for around $160 shipped to your house. If you can fab up brackets it is a good way to save some money.
Wasn't there a talk about fab9 having an upgraded core?
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Old 08-04-2016, 02:11 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by psyber_0ptix View Post
Re: Turbulators, Vibrant came out with higher density cores last year right? Earlier it was indistinguishable from ebay cores where you could see completely down the long end.
I may have seen the new ones at SEMA and I still wasn't impressed. They use an offset fin design which is better than nothing, but the Precision core is fully louvered the whole way, and it makes a huge difference. I am doing IC testing right now and the Precision 350 is far better than the Treadstone staggered design that I believe Vibrant switched to. On a 300whp setup, the intercooler is not where you want to cheap out.
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Old 08-04-2016, 03:33 PM   #11
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I am running the Fab9 intercooler and it blocks the nose of my car like crazy. I like the way it mounts, I like the way it looks, and I haven't had reason to complain about the way it performs as an intercooler, but it's killing my under hood temps.
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Old 08-04-2016, 04:00 PM   #12
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I cut the plastic bumper bit to open up space. The inside of the intercooler looked dense though, I'm curious how these cores imperially stack up with precisions extra girth and width. Obviously tried and true, but I'm not trying to stir another intercooler debate

Vibrant 12831 (550hp)
22"W x 9"H x 3.25"


Precision PIN051-2160 (600hp)
24"x8"x3.5"


That's a topic for another thread, though.
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Old 08-05-2016, 04:12 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Humjaba View Post
Well, I thought I'd be satisfied with a nice, reliable, problem-free 150whp but it's put me in an interesting predicament at the local track days. I'm too fast to play with the other miatas, but too slow to keep up with anyone else in the advanced group. I enjoy driving more than wrenching, so I'd like this to be a reliability-focused build. You tell me if anything I plan for doesn't jive there. I would also prefer to only buy everything once.

Current setup is 02 engine and 5 speed in a 95 chassis. Flat top manifold, RB header, borla catback. I haven't ordered anything yet, but I'm about to set my credit card on fire so I thought I'd do a sanity check first.

Stage 1 - Track reliable on stock engine and 5 speed
* Trackspeed efr6258 kit
* Flowforce 610cc inj
* Coolant reroute (keep the 02 head gasket?), big radiator, ducting and hood vents
* FM stage 2 happy meal
* Oil cooler
* Fab9 intercooler stage 1
* FM damper
* Have a local shop put together a 3" exhaust
* 220ish whp/tq? I'm not opposed to having a low boost track map and a higher boost street map - anyone else do this or is it a bad idea?
==== Is the 5 speed torque or power (heat dissipation) limited? I've read conflicting reports. Assuming I can keep the EGT's and engine oil temps down, is there any reason not to pull a BMW and run 220wtq from as low to as high as I can? EBC magic... I also have a spare 5spd in my garage.

Stage 2 - Track reliable with built engine and 6 speed, 3.9 rear gear
* 949 supertech/xx pistons/rings
* A beam rods
* FM engine rebuilt kit
* Run moar boost
* 300whp? 300wtq?
* This is a while out, so more as that gets closer. Just want to make sure everything I buy now has enough headroom with this in mind.

Any good sources online for IC tubing? I've got a friend who does some amazing aluminum welding who has agreed to help with some of the fabrication.
Also, I've heard conflicting stories about whether the flat top is worth it on an FI engine - would I be better off selling it and putting a gutted stock VTCS mani back on and using that money for something else?
Will the 610s be enough to max out a 6 speed or should I look for more? Deutschwerks 700? ID 1000? No E85 where I live.
Any experience with turbo blankets? How's this compare to a sheet metal shield?

As for budget... I prefer quality and reliability and I'm willing to spend extra for it, but not past the point of diminishing returns. I also fancy technology (thus the EFR). Hoping to design this as a complete system to save money through doing everything right the first time So far it's looking like about $5k. Thanks in advance..

Do you tow or drive to the track? Where are your upgraded brakes? I needed big brakes at about 170whp.

My advice- stay N/A or get a tow vehicle and trailer. Getting stuck at the track sucks and it will happen with a forced induction Miata... that said- 220whp is real fast, 300 would be nuts. Also- I think you need to double your budget... Radiator~600, Brakes~1000, Oil cooler~400, Turbo+exhaust+IC~3000, Fuel Injectors~500, Clutch, 6-speed, 3.9 Torsen etc etc etc. **** spirals out of control real fast. Ask me how I know haha.

Good luck!
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Old 08-05-2016, 05:11 PM   #14
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Alright - FAB9 out, Precision in. As for the email, Sav - don't worry about it, I asked basically the same questions there as I did in this thread. I sent it as a response to our email chain back in April though, so maybe it got caught there somewhere.

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Originally Posted by dcamp2 View Post
Do you tow or drive to the track? Where are your upgraded brakes? I needed big brakes at about 170whp.

My advice- stay N/A or get a tow vehicle and trailer. Getting stuck at the track sucks and it will happen with a forced induction Miata... that said- 220whp is real fast, 300 would be nuts. Also- I think you need to double your budget... Radiator~600, Brakes~1000, Oil cooler~400, Turbo+exhaust+IC~3000, Fuel Injectors~500, Clutch, 6-speed, 3.9 Torsen etc etc etc. **** spirals out of control real fast. Ask me how I know haha.

Good luck!
Currently I drive, I've got AAA and the tracks I go to are all within my tow distance.. but I'd rather not use that. I will get an SUV and trailer eventually. Also, my $5k rough budget was for this "stage 1" portion only. For brakes, I'll stick with the stockers until I wear through the DTC60's I've got and or my wallet recovers.

As for the coolant reroute head gasket discussion... the temp sensor is at the back of the head, which is the purported problem area, so would it be worth trying with the stock HG and coolant routing? How likely is a hotspot that doesn't show up on the temp gauge to kill the engine?

And, for your viewing pleasure, my last track day at Road Atlanta. Yes, I'm wearing shorts, no that's not allowed, I forgot to put my pants back on before going out It was 97F and humid.
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Old 08-05-2016, 05:52 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Uncle Humjaba View Post
Alright - FAB9 out, Precision in. As for the email, Sav - don't worry about it, I asked basically the same questions there as I did in this thread. I sent it as a response to our email chain back in April though, so maybe it got caught there somewhere.


Currently I drive, I've got AAA and the tracks I go to are all within my tow distance.. but I'd rather not use that. I will get an SUV and trailer eventually. Also, my $5k rough budget was for this "stage 1" portion only. For brakes, I'll stick with the stockers until I wear through the DTC60's I've got and or my wallet recovers.

As for the coolant reroute head gasket discussion... the temp sensor is at the back of the head, which is the purported problem area, so would it be worth trying with the stock HG and coolant routing? How likely is a hotspot that doesn't show up on the temp gauge to kill the engine?

And, for your viewing pleasure, my last track day at Road Atlanta. Yes, I'm wearing shorts, no that's not allowed, I forgot to put my pants back on before going out It was 97F and humid.
JZilla July Road Atlanta 1:50.7 Miata - YouTube

Nice driving- I think you'd be a lot happier N/A with just a 6-speed... way tighter gearing to keep you higher in the revs. And you'll be buying a 6-speed anyways if you go FI.


I say run it with the stock HG and watch the temp gauge... My first FI track day I could watch the gauge start to move (I had stock radiator+ Coolant RR), do a cool down lap and then repeat... my engine did not explode.

And my second track day with FI (when I'd fixed the engine overheating) my brakes almost melted. Carbotech XP10 pads with ducting. I very nearly hit another car in the pit area due to glazed pads.

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Old 08-06-2016, 01:08 PM   #16
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Cage? There comes a time . . . .
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Old 08-12-2016, 05:53 PM   #17
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Cage? There comes a time . . . .
Not on a car which gets street-driven

Sav, you've got an order. Check the shipping comments.


Also, the Porsche Sport Driving School is pretty awesome.

Last edited by Uncle Humjaba; 08-19-2016 at 06:28 PM.
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Old 08-23-2016, 05:00 PM   #18
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So apparently ordering from Trackspeed means something unexpected and expensive will happen elsewhere in your life. A CV joint on my DD unceremoniously shat itself on my way home the other day. So I get to DD the Miata until I have time to fix that... need to replace the bushings, tie rods and ball joints at the same time.
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Old 08-23-2016, 08:25 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Uncle Humjaba View Post
Well, I thought I'd be satisfied with a nice, reliable, problem-free 150whp but it's put me in an interesting predicament at the local track days. I'm too fast to play with the other miatas, but too slow to keep up with anyone else in the advanced group. I enjoy driving more than wrenching, so I'd like this to be a reliability-focused build. You tell me if anything I plan for doesn't jive there. I would also prefer to only buy everything once.

Current setup is 02 engine and 5 speed in a 95 chassis. Flat top manifold, RB header, borla catback. I haven't ordered anything yet, but I'm about to set my credit card on fire so I thought I'd do a sanity check first.

Stage 1 - Track reliable on stock engine and 5 speed
* Trackspeed efr6258 kit
* Flowforce 610660cc inj
* Coolant reroute (keep the 02 head gasket?), big radiator, ducting and hood vents
* FM stage 2 happy meal
* Oil cooler
* Fab9 intercooler stage 1 Precision 350hp intercooler
* FM damper
* Have a local shop put together a 3" exhaust
* 220ish whp/tq? I'm not opposed to having a low boost track map and a higher boost street map - anyone else do this or is it a bad idea?
==== Is the 5 speed torque or power (heat dissipation) limited? I've read conflicting reports. Assuming I can keep the EGT's and engine oil temps down, is there any reason not to pull a BMW and run 220wtq from as low to as high as I can? EBC magic... I also have a spare 5spd in my garage.

Stage 2 - Track reliable with built engine and 6 speed, 3.9 rear gear
* 949 supertech/xx pistons/rings
* A beam rods Rods of some kind
* FM engine rebuilt kit
* ARP main studs
* Billet oil pump gears
* Run moar boost
* 300whp? 300wtq?
* This is a while out, so more as that gets closer. Just want to make sure everything I buy now has enough headroom with this in mind.

Any good sources online for IC tubing? I've got a friend who does some amazing aluminum welding who has agreed to help with some of the fabrication.
Also, I've heard conflicting stories about whether the flat top is worth it on an FI engine - would I be better off selling it and putting a gutted stock VTCS mani back on and using that money for something else?
Will the 610s be enough to max out a 6 speed or should I look for more? Deutschwerks 700? ID 1000? No E85 where I live.
Any experience with turbo blankets? How's this compare to a sheet metal shield?

As for budget... I prefer quality and reliability and I'm willing to spend extra for it, but not past the point of diminishing returns. I also fancy technology (thus the EFR). Hoping to design this as a complete system to save money through doing everything right the first time So far it's looking like about $5k. Thanks in advance..
What about a few bucks into suspension, aero, and a little bit into the engine for a touch more power? I suggest this because I'm in a bit of the same predicament (faster than the rest of the Miatas, not fast enough to keep up with the GT3s), but aero and a few more bolt-ons and tune have bridged the gap. I just got some Hohos, so I should be able to bug them quite a bit (similar HP as your current build, but gutted and caged).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
... Valve springs + rods makes the motor immune to missed shifts, which is a good feature to have.
Agreed (and I've done the same), but only wish that it would make it immune from the MONEY shift (i.e. 5-->2).
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Old 08-23-2016, 08:49 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by 1999NB View Post
What about a few bucks into suspension, aero, and a little bit into the engine for a touch more power? I suggest this because I'm in a bit of the same predicament (faster than the rest of the Miatas, not fast enough to keep up with the GT3s), but aero and a few more bolt-ons and tune have bridged the gap. I just got some Hohos, so I should be able to bug them quite a bit (similar HP as your current build, but gutted and caged).



Agreed (and I've done the same), but only wish that it would make it immune from the MONEY shift (i.e. 5-->2).
I've gone about as far as I can before hitting big $ for little gain in the engine (next would be cams?). I do plan a plywood splitter and ducktail. Already running spec miata suspension, which isn't great but does the job for now. No amount of suspension or aero will shorten the gap between turn 7 and 10 at road Atlanta though!

I could do some weight reduction and throw on dot slicks but it's still a street car too.
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