eBay turbo kits
04-07-2008, 07:16 PM
#1
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eBay turbo kits
We kind of started to have this conversation over at m.net but it seemed to fizzle. But there's one thing that bugs me over all else concerning the various turbo kits that we see advertized on eBay, and it has to do with completeness.
First off, we're going to acknowledge that there are many different eBay sellers advertizing what appear to be several different kits. At a minimum, I've seen a couple of different manifold styles. Second, this isn't about quality. We're going to play Devil's Advocate and assume that the quality of all of the pieces in these kits are at least sufficient to survive the process of being installed and used for at least a day without immediately falling apart, cracking, or exploding.
Rather, this is about liability. Specifically, what liability, if any, the seller of such a kit has for damage caused to the engine by the purchaser.
We'll take this one for starters:
The above kit actually appears to be more or less complete. It has a manifold, a turbo, a downpipe, some oil lines, and some intake tubing. It also includes a fuel pressure regulator of some sort. Looks like the customer is on his own for an air filter and compressor intake, but apart from that it actually seems workable.
Then we've got this interesting piece of work:
It claims to be a "bolt-on", and yet clearly that a somewhat liberal interpretation. We've got a manifold, a turbo, a downpipe (ironically one of the better-looking I've seen on an eBay kit, at least from a design concept standpoint), an oil feed (no return) and nothing else. Ok, so maybe truth-in-advertizing is a bit lacking, but I don't see a lot of damage happening to the customer's engine. Without any kind of intake plumbing, the engine would not stay running long enough for the fact that all the oil is gushing out the bottom of the turbo to do any serious damage.
In all seriousness though, the worst I can see happening with this one is an angry post from a noob that says "plz tell me what parts i need to buy to make this complete i bought this turbo kit on ebay and i need help to get the car running because my dad says i need to get the car out of the driveway lolz", followed ten minutes later by: "why wont anybody help me with this im serious and ive built like ten turbo cars be4 so why is everyone being such a dick lol just kidding but seriously can u pleeze post links with everything i need to get and my budget is 300 to make this all work"
Then, we've got my personal favorite, and the one that really irks me worst of all:
The problem with this kit is that a person probably could install it all on the engine and start it up. The intake piping actually looks like it would more or less fit, and while there's no downpipe included a clever person could probably hack something into place. All in all, this one would seem to be a winner- it looks almost totally complete, and heck, it even includes an MBC.
Problem is that there's no fuel control. No AFPR, nothing. A person might reasonably be expected to install this thing on his engine, turn the key, and actually have it start and run. And then as soon as the owner got into boost (and we can make some Serious Boozt with that "JDM'S Manual Turbo Boost Controller !! with Easy to adjust from 1-30PSI") then the engine will go very lean and pretty much destroy itself immediately.
So what do you guys think? Does stating "professional install highly recommend" in the listing absolve the seller of all liability for what happens after Jimmy the Newb blows up his engine by running 18:1 AFR at 15PSI with no ignition retard? More to the point, has anyone ever actually seen or heard of this happening?
First off, we're going to acknowledge that there are many different eBay sellers advertizing what appear to be several different kits. At a minimum, I've seen a couple of different manifold styles. Second, this isn't about quality. We're going to play Devil's Advocate and assume that the quality of all of the pieces in these kits are at least sufficient to survive the process of being installed and used for at least a day without immediately falling apart, cracking, or exploding.
Rather, this is about liability. Specifically, what liability, if any, the seller of such a kit has for damage caused to the engine by the purchaser.
We'll take this one for starters:
The above kit actually appears to be more or less complete. It has a manifold, a turbo, a downpipe, some oil lines, and some intake tubing. It also includes a fuel pressure regulator of some sort. Looks like the customer is on his own for an air filter and compressor intake, but apart from that it actually seems workable.
Then we've got this interesting piece of work:
It claims to be a "bolt-on", and yet clearly that a somewhat liberal interpretation. We've got a manifold, a turbo, a downpipe (ironically one of the better-looking I've seen on an eBay kit, at least from a design concept standpoint), an oil feed (no return) and nothing else. Ok, so maybe truth-in-advertizing is a bit lacking, but I don't see a lot of damage happening to the customer's engine. Without any kind of intake plumbing, the engine would not stay running long enough for the fact that all the oil is gushing out the bottom of the turbo to do any serious damage.
In all seriousness though, the worst I can see happening with this one is an angry post from a noob that says "plz tell me what parts i need to buy to make this complete i bought this turbo kit on ebay and i need help to get the car running because my dad says i need to get the car out of the driveway lolz", followed ten minutes later by: "why wont anybody help me with this im serious and ive built like ten turbo cars be4 so why is everyone being such a dick lol just kidding but seriously can u pleeze post links with everything i need to get and my budget is 300 to make this all work"
Then, we've got my personal favorite, and the one that really irks me worst of all:
The problem with this kit is that a person probably could install it all on the engine and start it up. The intake piping actually looks like it would more or less fit, and while there's no downpipe included a clever person could probably hack something into place. All in all, this one would seem to be a winner- it looks almost totally complete, and heck, it even includes an MBC.
Problem is that there's no fuel control. No AFPR, nothing. A person might reasonably be expected to install this thing on his engine, turn the key, and actually have it start and run. And then as soon as the owner got into boost (and we can make some Serious Boozt with that "JDM'S Manual Turbo Boost Controller !! with Easy to adjust from 1-30PSI") then the engine will go very lean and pretty much destroy itself immediately.
So what do you guys think? Does stating "professional install highly recommend" in the listing absolve the seller of all liability for what happens after Jimmy the Newb blows up his engine by running 18:1 AFR at 15PSI with no ignition retard? More to the point, has anyone ever actually seen or heard of this happening?
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04-07-2008, 07:24 PM
#2
Yes. A guy I know did this to his 240. Bought an ebay kit that was pretty complete except there was no fuel management. Ironically, he drove it at 5PSI for about 3 weeks. Then he turned it up to 15PSI. Well, yea first time he gassed it threw some rods, broke pistons, etc. Car hasn't moved on it's own power since. I still don't know how it survived with 5PSI and no fuel management for 3 weeks. I literally looked at it and told the guy he should stay out of boost till he gets it fixed, and he left boosting through 1st and 2nd.
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04-07-2008, 07:41 PM
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It would be interesting to hear from someone with a background in some kind of law. I mean, if you buy a part at autozone and it ***** up your car, you would think that they would be liable. When those firestone tires were exploding, were they liable for that?
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04-07-2008, 09:44 PM
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Well, what was the outcome? Did the 240 owner attempt to seek recourse against the seller, and if so, what was the nature of their interaction?
I don't think that's a good analogy.
Assume I go into Autozone and say "I would like to purchase an oil filter for my 1992 Mazda Miata." The person behind the counter then sells me an oil filter. I install it on the car, and while driving down the road the next day, the filter bursts, causing the failure of my engine.
Assuming that the clerk used the parts catalog to find the specified filter for a '92 Miata and sold me the correct filter for my car, then Autotone likely has no liability- they were not in any way negligent in conducting the normal business of selling an oil filter which the manufacturer of the filter has stated is suitable for a '92 Miata. My recourse is against the manufacturer of the filter. The only ways I can think of in which Autozone would have any liability in this case would be if:
1- It could be proven that Autozone had prior knowledge of a likely problem with the filter, such as a manufacturer's recall notice, an observed history of failures of that particular model filter, or
2- If the filter was physically damaged or defective in a way which should have been obvious to a person whose job duties involve the selling of oil filters.
Let's say however that the parts clerk was out of the "correct" filter, so instead they gave me one with the same thread and basic dimensions, but spec'd for a Honda instead. Or perhaps Autozone's computerized database contained an incorrect cross-reference for oil filters for a '92 Miata. In this case, Autozone is likely to be liable for my loss since they misrepresented the suitability of the filter for the purpose of being installed on a Miata. It does not matter if the misrepresentation was intentional (the Honda substitution) or unintentional (the database error). Autozone is in the business of selling car parts, and they have a responsibility to sell the correct part(s) for a given application.
The eBay turbo kit is more like this last example. With regard to the third kit which I posted:
The one thing I don't see on that particular ad is an explicit statement that the kit is "complete" or ready to "bolt on". In fact, the seller states "All of turbo parts and accessories do need to modification in order to fits perfectly. otherwise will list ABOVE." I think that's hustlerese for "Everything in this kit will require modification to fit unless we say otherwise."
It would be up to a claimant to demonstrate that the seller had somehow represented that the kit, by itself and without the addition (not modification) of parts, was complete and suitable for use on an otherwise stock '94-'02 Miata. This is clearly not the case as no fuel management is provided, but you'd have to prove that the seller both (i) had an obligation to disclose this fact, and (ii) that they failed to do so. This failure need not be deliberate or malicious- it would be sufficient to prove that a seller of turbo kits has a reasonable obligation to either provide a complete kit or to specifically advise the purchaser what is necessary to make the kit complete.
Still, there are things you gotta love about that ad. Such as:
JDM'S T25/T28 Turbo Downpipe Elbow Made out of High quality of Aluminium Material
Made from 100% SUS T-304 Stainless Steel
Well, which one is it?
Originally Posted by wes65
I mean, if you buy a part at autozone and it ***** up your car, you would think that they would be liable.
Assume I go into Autozone and say "I would like to purchase an oil filter for my 1992 Mazda Miata." The person behind the counter then sells me an oil filter. I install it on the car, and while driving down the road the next day, the filter bursts, causing the failure of my engine.
Assuming that the clerk used the parts catalog to find the specified filter for a '92 Miata and sold me the correct filter for my car, then Autotone likely has no liability- they were not in any way negligent in conducting the normal business of selling an oil filter which the manufacturer of the filter has stated is suitable for a '92 Miata. My recourse is against the manufacturer of the filter. The only ways I can think of in which Autozone would have any liability in this case would be if:
1- It could be proven that Autozone had prior knowledge of a likely problem with the filter, such as a manufacturer's recall notice, an observed history of failures of that particular model filter, or
2- If the filter was physically damaged or defective in a way which should have been obvious to a person whose job duties involve the selling of oil filters.
Let's say however that the parts clerk was out of the "correct" filter, so instead they gave me one with the same thread and basic dimensions, but spec'd for a Honda instead. Or perhaps Autozone's computerized database contained an incorrect cross-reference for oil filters for a '92 Miata. In this case, Autozone is likely to be liable for my loss since they misrepresented the suitability of the filter for the purpose of being installed on a Miata. It does not matter if the misrepresentation was intentional (the Honda substitution) or unintentional (the database error). Autozone is in the business of selling car parts, and they have a responsibility to sell the correct part(s) for a given application.
The eBay turbo kit is more like this last example. With regard to the third kit which I posted:
The one thing I don't see on that particular ad is an explicit statement that the kit is "complete" or ready to "bolt on". In fact, the seller states "All of turbo parts and accessories do need to modification in order to fits perfectly. otherwise will list ABOVE." I think that's hustlerese for "Everything in this kit will require modification to fit unless we say otherwise."
It would be up to a claimant to demonstrate that the seller had somehow represented that the kit, by itself and without the addition (not modification) of parts, was complete and suitable for use on an otherwise stock '94-'02 Miata. This is clearly not the case as no fuel management is provided, but you'd have to prove that the seller both (i) had an obligation to disclose this fact, and (ii) that they failed to do so. This failure need not be deliberate or malicious- it would be sufficient to prove that a seller of turbo kits has a reasonable obligation to either provide a complete kit or to specifically advise the purchaser what is necessary to make the kit complete.
Still, there are things you gotta love about that ad. Such as:
JDM'S T25/T28 Turbo Downpipe Elbow Made out of High quality of Aluminium Material Made from 100% SUS T-304 Stainless Steel
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04-08-2008, 11:17 AM
#6
i could only see it as a legal problem if someone were retarded enough to think that it would fit, but i guess patsmx5 proved that. However, would the seller try to pull an autozone and say that they are just a distributer, and that they don't make the parts but they were told it was a direct bolt on with all of goodies?
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04-08-2008, 11:28 AM
#7
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Hey Joe.
Assuming that these 'kits' are functional is probably a misnomer but I DO get why you started with that assummption.
Probably the greatest error in wanting POWER is understanding the WHOLE picture. People more often than not think a complete kit of some kind is all that is needed. Many do not do their homework, look at all the angles of what they need, just install some kit and think all has been covered. Getting them to comprehend the entire picture is moot if they have no clue about any of it from the start other than the kit mentality.
Maybe this needs addressed from the 'what do you need' checklist type of thinking? When you read articles in magazines that may show the 'do it yourself' kit install, most all of them only cover the kit itself and never discuss all the other aspects of needs beyond the kit. This begins the flaw, and unfortunately leads to the destruction of a perfectly good engine or other drivetrain parts.
The day of understanding the basics and BUILDING something is long gone. Just another place where thinking has been eliminated from the process and getting something you can 'quick' install has replaced the process. It is too bad that most want to bypass the basics and understand things, just the gratification side seems to be their goals.
I know a couple people who installed kits, not sure where they got them, but they didn't look at the fuel side and did have disasterous results. One just bought a crate engine and moved on to get it right, the other went the long route and rebuilt the engine. Both did learn from their experiences, but the second guy is now much more competent at everything he does because of the rebuilding process and what he learned. He has since built a really great system and is much better off as a result.
Assuming that these 'kits' are functional is probably a misnomer but I DO get why you started with that assummption.
Probably the greatest error in wanting POWER is understanding the WHOLE picture. People more often than not think a complete kit of some kind is all that is needed. Many do not do their homework, look at all the angles of what they need, just install some kit and think all has been covered. Getting them to comprehend the entire picture is moot if they have no clue about any of it from the start other than the kit mentality.
Maybe this needs addressed from the 'what do you need' checklist type of thinking? When you read articles in magazines that may show the 'do it yourself' kit install, most all of them only cover the kit itself and never discuss all the other aspects of needs beyond the kit. This begins the flaw, and unfortunately leads to the destruction of a perfectly good engine or other drivetrain parts.
The day of understanding the basics and BUILDING something is long gone. Just another place where thinking has been eliminated from the process and getting something you can 'quick' install has replaced the process. It is too bad that most want to bypass the basics and understand things, just the gratification side seems to be their goals.
I know a couple people who installed kits, not sure where they got them, but they didn't look at the fuel side and did have disasterous results. One just bought a crate engine and moved on to get it right, the other went the long route and rebuilt the engine. Both did learn from their experiences, but the second guy is now much more competent at everything he does because of the rebuilding process and what he learned. He has since built a really great system and is much better off as a result.
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04-08-2008, 01:04 PM
#8
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I forgot to add, in my earlier reply - turbocharging, supercharging, power enhancements in general are not plug-n-play like the things so many are used to these days, not an excuse for not taking the time to learn and do something right. Many buy this stuff with little to no understanding of what they are getting into. Those who take the time to investigate their needs will get it right without much incident. Those who do not take the time will eventually get it right, may be more time consuming, and certainly more costly. The latter group will get the lesson - doing it right, spending what is needed to get it right - there are no shortcuts.
musanovic.
While I certainly DO agree with your assessment of FISHFARTS post, we all must realize that sometimes a person lacks a good vocabulary or the correct communication skills, so this IS their language or means of communication. Not an excuse, but certainly an explination.
Having said all that, there are times when the language that was used is totally correct for the situation . . this was not the time, place or situation.
Take a minute and look at my first 'newbie' post where I said GREETINGS to all as an opener to introduce myself. You will see something similar. It made me wonder if I wanted to be a member of the site, or if I should just move on. I decided to continue to participate here, hoping that what contribution I made would be in the best interest of the question being asked and that there would be those who could answer any of my questions with straightforward competent answers. As I said in that post, neewbie to site, not newbie to turbocharging, am newbie to some of the wonderful things that have come about for our cars since the stone age era began regarding turbocharging and I install my first one.
musanovic.
While I certainly DO agree with your assessment of FISHFARTS post, we all must realize that sometimes a person lacks a good vocabulary or the correct communication skills, so this IS their language or means of communication. Not an excuse, but certainly an explination.
Having said all that, there are times when the language that was used is totally correct for the situation . . this was not the time, place or situation.
Take a minute and look at my first 'newbie' post where I said GREETINGS to all as an opener to introduce myself. You will see something similar. It made me wonder if I wanted to be a member of the site, or if I should just move on. I decided to continue to participate here, hoping that what contribution I made would be in the best interest of the question being asked and that there would be those who could answer any of my questions with straightforward competent answers. As I said in that post, neewbie to site, not newbie to turbocharging, am newbie to some of the wonderful things that have come about for our cars since the stone age era began regarding turbocharging and I install my first one.
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04-08-2008, 01:41 PM
#9
Joe i have always been of the opinion that you buy off ebay and you are on your own. Yes most of those kits are not PnP but they are workable to some extent, and generally come through with cheap ebay turbos. The liability of the sellers is a moot point as far as i am concerened, noobs can come here and read our posts etc, and be able to figure it out. If they cant then well maybe they shouldn't be messing with there car to that extent alone. Just my 2 cents though being a ebay turbo purchaser and general noob to everything turbo before i started on my miata.
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04-08-2008, 01:55 PM
#10
eh, unless the ad says something to the effect of "you don't need anything else to install this **** and run 275hp" you'd have a hard time selling "it's their fault my car blew the **** up" to ANYONE, let alone a jury of people with half a brain combined.
that said, ******* retards that spill hot coffee in their laps somehow got money from McD's, etc...
that said, ******* retards that spill hot coffee in their laps somehow got money from McD's, etc...
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04-10-2008, 11:06 AM
#11
Boost Pope
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The kits that FM, Bell, and Greddy supply are most certainly "plug-n-play", at least insofar as that no additional parts are required. The Greddy kit has no tuning at all to speak of, and the Bell and FM kits are sufficiently baselined as to work without blowing anything up. Ditto the various superchargers kits from Moss/JR/FFS...
It's largely a hypothetical question, a thought-exercise if you will. I was curious to hear the real-world experiences of others and how, if at all, they corresponded to my theories...
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04-10-2008, 11:43 AM
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I agree - this should be a sticky, or something similar that does tell it like it is.
Back in 2000 when I decided to turbocharge my car, I took the time to read everything I could find to fully understand what was needed to do things right. I did not want to blow up my engine or have any headaches from an insufficient amount of knowledge.
There are some great books, lots of info on the net, really NO excuse not to get it done right with all the right stuff. Someone in a hurry or someone who llacks the understanding, well, they probably eserve what happens.
Back in 2000 when I decided to turbocharge my car, I took the time to read everything I could find to fully understand what was needed to do things right. I did not want to blow up my engine or have any headaches from an insufficient amount of knowledge.
There are some great books, lots of info on the net, really NO excuse not to get it done right with all the right stuff. Someone in a hurry or someone who llacks the understanding, well, they probably eserve what happens.
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04-14-2008, 04:53 AM
#14
I think no matter what is done, people will still buy these kits because of the great deal they think they are getting as well as the constant image being portrayed of being able to buy everything dirt cheap on eBay. When I saw these eBay kits for sale, the first thing I did was look up as much info as possible to see how these kits worked out.
I think if people get these kits, its their own fault for any damage because if you are trying to turbo your car and didn’t do the research, you’re the only person to blame. On the other hand, they should be more specific saying something like other parts required or, hardware kit.. etc.
I think if people get these kits, its their own fault for any damage because if you are trying to turbo your car and didn’t do the research, you’re the only person to blame. On the other hand, they should be more specific saying something like other parts required or, hardware kit.. etc.
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04-17-2008, 01:26 AM
#15
Joe, great idea for a thread... but one piece of advice. The eBay ad's you're linking will be gone in a month or two. The links will only go to a page that says "Sorry, this ad is no longer active" and people won't be able to see anything. Could I suggest taking screenshots of each of the popular ebay turbo kits and a short paragraph on each one... for example, this kit is probably the most popular one out there that looks like it has everything, but we all know it's crap. Just a paragraph highlighting it's strengths and weaknesses as a kit compared against the other kits would be of great service to noobs looking for info.
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04-17-2008, 12:37 PM
#17
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Actually, I downloaded a complete copy of all three postings- images and all, in html form. If someone can give me a place to host them, we can change the links.
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04-26-2008, 04:21 PM
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hey fella's im new to the tuner game and want to say i have alot of respect for yall guys who know what ur doin because i don't and am trying to learn. i just bought a white 91 miata 40k miles. im very interested in turboing it and doin it right. what is the best way to do this without blowing a wad because i am a student but i do understand that i can't cheap on it like those cheap ebay kits.
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06-03-2008, 02:39 PM
#20
They all say
*note: as you may know these are after market parts. We recommend professional installation.
So they can just say the user did not know what he was doing. Also I saw one that said 90d warranty LOL!!!!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/mazda...spagenameZWDVW
*note: as you may know these are after market parts. We recommend professional installation.
So they can just say the user did not know what he was doing. Also I saw one that said 90d warranty LOL!!!!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/mazda...spagenameZWDVW
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