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Old 02-18-2009, 01:04 PM   #121
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FACT: AEM master tuners couldn't figure out an issue I once had with the EMS. Even after hours of datalogs and a private tuning session at the AEM dyno.

FACT: MS runs perfect on my car.


OPINION: AEM EMS isn't worth the price.


FACT: People break 5-spds at sub-200whp.

FACT: People don't break 5-spds at 275+whp.


OPINION: Onions smell good when mixed with butter and garlic in a pan on my stove.


I am absolutely right, you don't have anything.
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Old 02-18-2009, 01:24 PM   #122
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Atta boy Ben! GIT EM
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Old 02-18-2009, 01:28 PM   #123
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opinion: Onions smell good when mixed with butter and garlic in a pan on my stove.
+1
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Old 02-18-2009, 02:19 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by BenR View Post
FACT: AEM master tuners couldn't figure out an issue I once had with the EMS. Even after hours of datalogs and a private tuning session at the AEM dyno.

FACT: MS runs perfect on my car.


OPINION: AEM EMS isn't worth the price.


FACT: People break 5-spds at sub-200whp.

FACT: People don't break 5-spds at 275+whp.


OPINION: Onions smell good when mixed with butter and garlic in a pan on my stove.


I am absolutely right, you don't have anything.
But does your EBC work? Or are you just using a MBC instead like almost everyone else?

What was your issue with your EMS that AEM couldn't fix? I have access to a well regarded tuner who might be able to diagnosis it and tell you how it could have been fixed. He tunes on several different ECUs, including <gasp> MS.

We have a customer here who has MS on his Datsun 280Z. His biggest complaint is that he isn't getting the same power as his friends who are running Haltechs, and that his EBC doesn't work right.

It's terrible that I work in a field where I see first-hand the exact items we are discussing. I just feel like I have an unfair advantage having these resources available to me.
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Old 02-18-2009, 02:50 PM   #125
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But does your EBC work? Or are you just using a MBC instead like almost everyone else?

What was your issue with your EMS that AEM couldn't fix? I have access to a well regarded tuner who might be able to diagnosis it and tell you how it could have been fixed. He tunes on several different ECUs, including <gasp> MS.

We have a customer here who has MS on his Datsun 280Z. His biggest complaint is that he isn't getting the same power as his friends who are running Haltechs, and that his EBC doesn't work right.

It's terrible that I work in a field where I see first-hand the exact items we are discussing. I just feel like I have an unfair advantage having these resources available to me.





It's amazing how full of yourself you are. Could it be possible that other people may have just as much of not more first hand experience?

I didn't buy the MS for EBC. How much is an AEM EBC? How much is the MS PnP? How much is the AEM?

You can spout ease of use, how many absolute newbs are using the AEM on a miata without issue? How many on MS?

The car would dyno fine and make big power, then eat **** when it was put back on the road. You're not understanding me when I say AEM themselves couldn't figure out the issue, at their dyno.

Is the only difference on that customers car the ecu? I'd imagine not. Have you are compared the ecu on the exact same car with the exact same maps on the exact same dyno?


It seems all you have is an unfair advantage of jumping to unfounded conclusions and thinking your opinion is law since you sweep floors at a "tuner" shop.




Again I'd like to point out I don't hate AEM, or their EMS, they are decent ECU solutions, I just dissagree with "Big Time Tuner" Ray here who thinks the MS is crap and the AEM can do no wrong.

Last edited by BenR; 02-18-2009 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 02-18-2009, 03:56 PM   #126
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Ray is ******* up my forum browsing experiance with his bullshit "facts"... Where is the mighty ban hammer of Thor when you need it. Not that I think stupid people should be banned just for not knowing any better that they are retarded, but this is getting old. Surely he is just trying to stir up ****, no one could be this stupid, could they?
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Old 02-18-2009, 05:02 PM   #127
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It's amazing how full of yourself you are. Could it be possible that other people may have just as much of not more first hand experience?
How many people have been tuning cars for 18+ yrs, professionally? How many people have tuned on MS, AEM EMS, Haltech, Autronic, and many others, professionally? How many people get all expenses paid trips all over the world to tune people's cars?

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Originally Posted by BenR View Post
I didn't buy the MS for EBC. How much is an AEM EBC? How much is the MS PnP? How much is the AEM?
Price is irrelevant. It's the performance we are discussing. No one will say an MS is as good as an Autronic or Motec.

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Originally Posted by BenR View Post
You can spout ease of use, how many absolute newbs are using the AEM on a miata without issue? How many on MS?
That is part of the problem. Newbs who think they can tune. Just cause you read a guide on tuning doesn't make you a tuner, it just means you understand the concept. we went from a Honda base map to a pretty good street tune in 3 street pulls, and 2 dyno pulls. So MAYBE 30min, including strapping it down. Then 2 street pulls and 2 dyno pulls to tune it for 10psi. So not even 1hr for tuning.

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Originally Posted by BenR View Post
The car would dyno fine and make big power, then eat **** when it was put back on the road. You're not understanding me when I say AEM themselves couldn't figure out the issue, at their dyno.
Hmmm. Need a tad bite more info than that. We get calls from AEM when they have issues with their EMS. Alot of shops call here for help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenR View Post
Is the only difference on that customers car the ecu? I'd imagine not. Have you are compared the ecu on the exact same car with the exact same maps on the exact same dyno?
They 280Zs were very similar, and they were at a dyno day. So the guys with Haltechs tried to help tune the MS, and got it as close as they could to the settings they were running on their cars, and still it was 20whp less. That is the fairest comparision you can really get. Yes, same car, swap ECUs, would work, but who is gonna really do that? So this would be the next best scenario.

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It seems all you have is an unfair advantage of jumping to unfounded conclusions and thinking your opinion is law since you sweep floors at a "tuner" shop.
The only "unfounded conclusions" are in most of the responses I get.

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Originally Posted by BenR View Post
Again I'd like to point out I don't hate AEM, or their EMS, they are decent ECU solutions, I just dissagree with "Big Time Tuner" Ray here who thinks the MS is crap and the AEM can do no wrong.
I almost bought the MS PnP when it came out. But my boss presented the same facts I have presented on this forum. I'm sorry if I can understand other point of views and use them in my decision making. MS works, but AEM EMS is by far the better option, even considering the price difference. If you wanted to go real pricey, you could get a Motec or Autronic. Do I need to argue how those would be better than a MS, Haltech and AEM EMS? We can get a RUF tech to come in here and explain why they run Motec instead of MS, but I doubt anyone will listen to him either.
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Old 02-18-2009, 05:09 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by NA6C-Guy View Post
Ray is ******* up my forum browsing experiance with his bullshit "facts"... Where is the mighty ban hammer of Thor when you need it. Not that I think stupid people should be banned just for not knowing any better that they are retarded, but this is getting old. Surely he is just trying to stir up ****, no one could be this stupid, could they?
I haven't included any "bullshit facts". I've found alot of the other info used were "bullshit facts" though. I do apologize for presenting an alternate answer to some mis-conceptions and mis-information that people are presented with while browsing this forum. Sometimes the stuff on the internet can be the truth, or so I hope.
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Old 02-18-2009, 05:15 PM   #129
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Dang, why don't you monkeys start your own thread to argue in?? ha ha!! And where is the proof supporting this 300hp stock block Miata??
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Old 02-18-2009, 05:19 PM   #130
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Dang, why don't you monkeys start your own thread to argue in?? ha ha!! And where is the proof supporting this 300hp stock block Miata??
I think he got scared off. Some people just don't have the heart to stick it out sometimes.
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Old 02-18-2009, 06:23 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by ray_sir_6 View Post
How many people have been tuning cars for 18+ yrs, professionally? How many people have tuned on MS, AEM EMS, Haltech, Autronic, and many others, professionally? How many people get all expenses paid trips all over the world to tune people's cars?
Riiight. That's why you're arguing everyday with Johnny Nobodys on a miata turbo message board. Thank you for blessing us Massiah with your golden edicts.




Quote:
Price is irrelevant. It's the performance we are discussing. No one will say an MS is as good as an Autronic or Motec.
Price has complete relevance, especially when in practice there is an insignifigant difference. Case in point: Why are you not using a Motec? Are you saying the AEM is everybit as good?



Quote:
That is part of the problem. Newbs who think they can tune. Just cause you read a guide on tuning doesn't make you a tuner, it just means you understand the concept. we went from a Honda base map to a pretty good street tune in 3 street pulls, and 2 dyno pulls. So MAYBE 30min, including strapping it down. Then 2 street pulls and 2 dyno pulls to tune it for 10psi. So not even 1hr for tuning.

You can't have it both ways man. Either it's so good and awesome because it's easy enough a noob can use it, and make more power, or it isn't.




Quote:
Hmmm. Need a tad bite more info than that. We get calls from AEM when they have issues with their EMS. Alot of shops call here for help.
So AEM doesn't understand their own ECU better than you? Please forgive me if I think you're full of ****.


Quote:
They 280Zs were very similar, and they were at a dyno day. So the guys with Haltechs tried to help tune the MS, and got it as close as they could to the settings they were running on their cars, and still it was 20whp less. That is the fairest comparision you can really get. Yes, same car, swap ECUs, would work, but who is gonna really do that? So this would be the next best scenario.
Who's gonna do that? Someone who is going to prove something scientifically enstead of by assumption.


Quote:
The only "unfounded conclusions" are in most of the responses I get.
Have you stoped to think why everyone dissagrees with you on almost everything? I gurantee you it's not just because of your **** poor attitude.



Quote:
I almost bought the MS PnP when it came out. But my boss presented the same facts I have presented on this forum.
Still waiting for some facts.

Quote:
I'm sorry if I can understand other point of views and use them in my decision making. MS works, but AEM EMS is by far the better option, even considering the price difference.
Why is it the better option again? I thought price didn't matter?


Quote:
If you wanted to go real pricey, you could get a Motec or Autronic. Do I need to argue how those would be better than a MS, Haltech and AEM EMS? We can get a RUF tech to come in here and explain why they run Motec instead of MS, but I doubt anyone will listen to him either.


"Price is irrelevant. It's the performance we are discussing. No one will say an AEM is as good as an Autronic or Motec."
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Old 02-18-2009, 06:52 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by ray_sir_6 View Post
They 280Zs were very similar, and they were at a dyno day. So the guys with Haltechs tried to help tune the MS, and got it as close as they could to the settings they were running on their cars, and still it was 20whp less. That is the fairest comparision you can really get. Yes, same car, swap ECUs, would work, but who is gonna really do that? So this would be the next best scenario.
The fact that you think you can make a valid comparison of two ECUs by running them on two separate cars, for me pretty much invalidates the rest of your...logic.
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Old 02-18-2009, 07:01 PM   #133
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Ray, I can appreciate your situation, I mean if you plugged in a MS and didn't make more power than all the noobs it makes you look bad as a "tooner".

But if you did you'd be eating alot of crow, because the MS would be basically as good as the AEM at half the cost.
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Old 02-18-2009, 07:24 PM   #134
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Riiight. That's why you're arguing everyday with Johnny Nobodys on a miata turbo message board. Thank you for blessing us Massiah with your golden edicts.
Not me, my boss. He thinks it's a waste of time to argue on the internet. He does get quite a laugh at some of these threads though. It's actually a source of entertainment in the shop. Some of our customers enjoy it as well. They go right up next to a guy who put sand in his intake to port the head.

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Originally Posted by BenR View Post
Price has complete relevance, especially when in practice there is an insignifigant difference. Case in point: Why are you not using a Motec? Are you saying the AEM is everybit as good?
I'm not that extreme. I just wanted boost control, a knock sensor, traction control, launch control, and boost by gear. You let me know how many of those MS does.


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You can't have it both ways man. Either it's so good and awesome because it's easy enough a noob can use it, and make more power, or it isn't.
No, you can't have it both ways. You can't have an ECU that is gonna make good power and be easy to tune by a newb. You have to learn how to do it, and even then you can't do it as well as the people who have years of tuning experience. Then you get limited by the standalone you are using; what it can control, what you can tune, etc.

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So AEM doesn't understand their own ECU better than you? Please forgive me if I think you're full of ****.
You think they don't send them out for people to test? We are on that list for alot of their stuff. Like their Version II ECU they are just releasing, you think the boss didn't have alot of input into their development?

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Originally Posted by BenR View Post
Who's gonna do that? Someone who is going to prove something scientifically enstead of by assumption.
Well, you go and do that. The features available in each makes it pretty easy to figure it out without wasting quite as much time and effort.

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Have you stoped to think why everyone dissagrees with you on almost everything? I gurantee you it's not just because of your **** poor attitude.
It couldn't be just cause they have **** poor attitudes? It might have something to do with it being the "norm", and rather than figuring it out for themselves, decided it had to be true and ran with it.

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Originally Posted by BenR View Post
Still waiting for some facts.
AEM - Plug & Play Engine Management Systems*

MegaSquirtPNP MM9093 for the 1990-93 Mazda Miata, manual tranny DIYAutoTune.com

Compare all you want. Those are not my "swing" on things, so you can't say I was using "bullshit facts". That is a catchy phrase though.

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Why is it the better option again? I thought price didn't matter?
Go do some research for yourself. Here's a hint, most of the info you need won't be found on MT.net.

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Originally Posted by BenR View Post
"Price is irrelevant. It's the performance we are discussing. No one will say an AEM is as good as an Autronic or Motec."
Sadly, they were above and beyond what I need right now. Believe me, if I get a $100k to spend on the car, it'll have a Motec and get a good ******* engine dyno tune! Till then, I am going with the one with the options I want, and the cost I am willing to pay.
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Old 02-18-2009, 07:43 PM   #135
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dudes, why are you wasting time and energy on each other when you will NEVER agree on this?? Stop acting so damn childish!! It's called marketing, some buy the AEM for the name, others buy the MS for the price. Do they both perform as well, in some aspects yes, others no. But stop arguing about something so trivial, unless you just have no life outside of your car....
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Old 02-18-2009, 07:50 PM   #136
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The fact that you think you can make a valid comparison of two ECUs by running them on two separate cars, for me pretty much invalidates the rest of your...logic.
So I guess your logic is flawed as well, seeing as you don't even have a similar car to compare it on. Everyone uses similar cars to get an idea what power another car should make. When you are talking about stock cars (Datsun 280Z) with a Haltech, and a MS, and raising the boost and a different freaking cone intake filter, you aren't talking about tons of difference. 20whp is still a big difference for the same boost level, and standalones, with as close to identical tunes as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenR View Post
Ray, I can appreciate your situation, I mean if you plugged in a MS and didn't make more power than all the noobs it makes you look bad as a "tooner".

But if you did you'd be eating alot of crow, because the MS would be basically as good as the AEM at half the cost.
Go do some research. Go compare features.

https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t31574/

At least the AEM EMS EBC works! That is worth the money right there!

DIYAutoTune.com

Damn, no traction control on MS?

Does it even have any outputs?

2-step launch control?

Nitrous Control?

Yet everything the MS says it does, so does the EMS
You do need a MAP sensor for the AEM, it isn't internal. Dang it, MS must be the better ECU.
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Old 02-18-2009, 08:53 PM   #137
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Sounds like someones butt-hurt they lost a bunch of sales to an inferior ECU.
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Old 02-18-2009, 09:42 PM   #138
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20whp different at what power lever? 20whp at ~150hp is a big difference, but at ~350hp... not so much. there are enough variables between the two cars that you could easily see a 20whp variance at "the same" boost level, different ECU's or not.

as far as max power goes, theres no way that an AEM magically makes more power. the MS (especially MS2) has plenty of resolution, and it can fire the SAME injectors and the SAME coils as the AEM.

wheres the difference? same motor, same coil, same amount of fuel and the same amount of ignition advance... there is none!
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Old 02-18-2009, 10:24 PM   #139
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20 hp? I bet they were running different mufflers. Or different viscosity oil. Or different wheel/tire combos. Or different intercooler dimensions. Or different air filters. Or different exhaust manifolds. Or different rear-end gearing. Or different trim turbos. Or different gap spark plugs. Or different thermostats. Or different ambient temps. Or different fuel pumps. Or different cam timing. Or different wastegate sizes. Or different boost by half a psi. Or different turbo heatshielding. Or different inlet air temperatures. Or different mass flywheels. Or different air pressure in the driven wheels.

Nah. Couldn't be. He said it was the ECU.
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Old 02-18-2009, 10:36 PM   #140
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my evo would **** on all of u in reverse lol but not to brag or anything at one time i had a turbo bigger than ur engine. but i have tuned many subarus and raced many they just are overrated and have weak engines. over 400whp is hard to achieve safely it takes a lot of money and knowledge. my old sponsor had a bug eye wrx that stomped on most evos it was hilarious but other than that i have not seen a sti or wrx that i respect at all. but wat he said about driver factor on awd cars is huge i kno a guy had a audi rs4 and lost to a a3 lol my friend when he first got his wrx lost to a saturn ion haha so driver error mixed with shitty build can equal and embarrasing race. and ur ballsy running 10psi on greddy without ems of some type or fueling. to each his own impressive either way
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