M-Tech Turbo conversions and ME221 shadyness
 

In the UK we suffer from shipping costs. I would love an MKT, TSE or even a BEGI to stick on my car but with an absence ofauthorised dealers its slim pickings.
The easiest to find and are listed below.

• Skuzzle Motorsport - widely known on MX5nut as good but I've read about someone there not understanding the MS ECU system and bypassing it to get things running.
• M-Tech - widely known on MX5nutz for doing good work but again I've read (in the same thread as above) some design plagiarism and whilst I realise Motorsport Electronics was formed after these events it is souring. They are only down the road from me and supply G19 hardware (just closer).
• Black Cat Motorsport - not found anything bad but it is DIY and find a tuner.
• G19 Engineering - Widely known on MX5nutz for being good and prolific in conversions. Same kit as the M-Tech company but different fitters.

I've had my car for 16 years and done everything myself so I'm not shy with a spanner although i am slow.
I'd love to get the back on boost but am worried. I'm still running my Emerald K3 ECU and Innovate wideband so I don't need the tuning extras too.
I even considered the <hushed tone>IRTB route</hushed tone> with Blink Motorsport as they have rave reviews.

Has anyone got hands on recent experience with any of these here?
Whilst history can point to form please steer away unless recent.

No experience with any of the above, I would suggest you look into a kraken manifold/downpipe setup, solid parts, great quality, he is in EU and great prices.

he has setups available for t25, td04 and EFR turbos.

find him on Facebook. KRAKEN

Skuzzle appear to be very very busy at the moment, so you may have a wait to get booked in with them.

MTech may refuse to map your Emerald to suit, which kind of defeats the point of using them in the first place. They told a friend of mine to send his MSLabs ECU back for a refund as 'it will break on the dyno' and to buy an ME221 instead, without disclosing that ME is their sister company, which is a bit off :(

Fitting a turbo kit isn't that complex if you are handy with the spanners, I'd say get the bits from G19 / Kraken etc, DIY and find another tuner to set it up for you - drive it gently down to see Dave Walker and get the master to set it up!

WOW!!

What a bunch of shady scumbags.

I did not initially want to post this as to not sour the thread.
My friend took his MR2 to be dyno'd there probably 10 years ago. At this point in time they were pushing Omex and attempting to talk my friend into it. Having had my K3 for about a year i was interested in the exact specifications and how the hardware worked. I was told my K3 was sub standard by a long way and the Omex would cope with everything. Being an embedded software engineer and quite accomplished electronics creator I pressed for information. The argument fell apart when comparing the processing power very quickly. The K3 has the same brain as Motec M series ECUs (i think M800 if i remember rightly) which is not only 32-bit but native floating point handling which makes it extremely good whilst not to everyone's flavour. The Omex they were pedalling was 16-bit, very expensive and considerably slower in cycles. Whilst i am well aware firmware on those hardware could screw the pooch (if you pardon the colloquialism) it seemed like the companies behind them were good enough to be at an even keel. This has made me cautious of them but they do get good reviews now although clearing the original owner and likely the person i met is still there.

I'll let more opinions build before I make any decision I cannot tar them for something from 10 years ago and early in their career. They are likely different people now so i'll give it a new leaf look.

They get good reviews because they bribe everyone to give them good reviews. There are NO independent/unbiased good reviews about them. None.

This is the one place that they cannot just lie and bribe their way into. They didn't last more than a few days here.

Well that's the end of me being silent on the flaming pile of copyright-violation garbage that is the ME221, then

I do realise sponsorship or bribes can be used to obtain silence of bad things and praise where none is deserved.
I also realise that this place is den of enthusiasts who will be brutally honest about the issues faced but if a vendor is articulate enough and ready to help they will thrive.
However, innocent until proven guilty (as well as fool me once) regardless of the previous interactions. Bribery for such a petty thing is a rather serious notion.

On the far more fun note of these shady discussions I am loving the look of the Kraken kit. I'm only a 1.6 long nose so won't be pushing big numbers like Sav or Hustler (was) but I should see 250bhp with some intercooling. It won't happen yet but I can buy the kit and probably some bits for reliability from TSE if shipping doesn't kill me.

Any insights into the above would be great.

insight on kraken kit? seems to work just fine, only issues we've heard of so far is slow turn around because he's super busy and flooded with orders, which is common when it comes to very popular parts

I've got the kraken kit sitting in my garage. Very nice (but heavy) log manifold, looks like it'll flow better than my old BEGI unit to me. Also came with a full 3" downpipe and full 3" exhaust, including a huge muffler, oil and coolant lines as well. The price was stupid cheap for what i got, nothing else could touch it. Now, I have no idea if it fits, how it performs, or any of that jazz. It's still in a box :p

For someone with a new born that is very much not a problem. Looks like I'm getting a giant octopus.

Anyone got experience with the Kraken tubular manifold?
Looks lighter, flows better but costs more.

Suppose I should look at fuel pumps and injectors too. Is Walbro still the daddy?

what kraken tubular manifolds? He only has cast t25 and td04 manifolds.

walbro is good for gas
DW is good for e85 and gas

True its not Kraken but DaveFab.
I don't have the wretched facebook so found a supplier and it seems there are tubular dooberies :)

We don't have E85 here so that makes it easier. Thanks

so your link shows a DaveFAB tubular manifold. not a Kraken one.

here is the Kraken setup from the website you linked:
Kraken Cast T25 Turbo Manifold Kit For MX-5 NA NB ? BOFI Racing

no need to spend big bucks on tubular manifolds. proper cast units flow great, are easy to install and are bombproof reliable.

I've read somewhere that the DW fuel pumps are quieter than the Warlbro ones.

I have a DW200 which is a direct replacement for the standard pump, even down to the same connectors / wiring. Seems to work fine for me :)

For a 1.6 with standard internals, a cast manifold is going to give you everything you need :)

I was simply thinking faster spool, better drive and with a 1.6 i need all the spooling help i can get. Nice to know they are good enough though.

Fuel pumps for 1.6 and 1.8 are the same right? I didn't dream reading that over the 16 years did I?

For the difference in price between the two you could probably source + fit a 1.8 instead (and I can't believe that with this being MT.net it's not been suggested already! ;) )

I think turbo sizing is going to make more of a difference than anything else - stick with a diddy turbo and it'll spool nicely - Garrett GT2554R or the BW equivalent shouldn't be too lethargic...

You mentioned you are close to MTech - whereabouts are you as that's close to my neck of the woods...

So at the current count I'm looking at:

1. SkidNation Reroute
2. Garrett GT2560R
3. Bosch 640cc Injectors
4. Kraken Kit
5. Intercooler
6. Deatschwerks DW200 fuel pump
7. Spare time

#1 is quite important for me (personally not functionally) as I want to declutter the engine bay a bit. Which happens to come with the joy of cooling the block properly.

I've been a passenger in a 1.6 with a GT2560R and I didn't like it that much - it didn't seem to get going properly until about 3500rpm then it all came at once. That may have been how it was setup though (it was a P5 supplied FM2 kit running link - Minton if you remember him from a long time ago on nutz).

What sort of power are you looking for top end? If the 2554R could get you there, I'd probably pick that instead. I had one on a 1.8 a long time ago and it was great - virtually no lag, spooled up from about 1800rpm and drove almost like a supercharged car....

I knew they were douchebags, but this level of douchebaggery is just phenomenal. No more mr nice guy from me either. Enough is enough.

I'm worried about insurance to be honest. Also I can do that later if i get really hungry. I know cost is cheap especially nowadays but Phoebe deserves better treatment than just carving out her heart.
232bhp (ie the classic double) as a start. I assume I'll be bitten again but the wallet is more flimsy now.
A pleasant end goal would be 232rwhp but will likely require rods and while I'm doing that i can really play (like getting a 1.8 or upping the RPM limit).

they offered me a free ecu when I brought the cold hard truth into their thread here and made them cry. I was going to try it and report back. after they realized I wasn't about to sugar coat or lie about anything, they changed their mind and never sent me one.

here's the thread
me221 fm221 rip off drama now 60% less rip hydra/

I think you could get there with a 2554 - it would be at the top end of what it would do, but it will suit a 1.6 much better than the larger turbo. I had mine at about 225FWHP at about 11-12PSI (on a 1.8) from what I remember, and there was still some extra in it...

Another option is the Subaru td04 route, the 13t is really cheap, fits one of krakens setups, and is slightly bigger than a 2554. It's good for 240whp and 300wtq at full tilt

I don't know or care about most of the ECUs in this thread, but... floating point? On an ECU? Are you planning on using the spare cycles in it to run DOOM or mine bitcoins or something?

An ECU isn't a general purpose computer, it doesn't run arbitrary 3rd party apps where having processing power in reserve is a benefit for future expandability. It's a single purpose appliance that's only ever going to run one program with very specifically defined performance requirements. There's no benefit to having a CPU that's faster than required, all it does is increase the hardware cost and complexity. An ECU is there to control an engine, and an engine is a physical device that moves very very slowly compared to electrons in silicon. 1 degree of crank rotation at 7200 RPM is 23 microseconds, which is an eternity on any CPU made in the last 25 years.

--Ian

This is my plan. I know two people local with 1.8 kraken setups (one TD04, one 2554) and the love the kraken parts. I am waiting on the new batch of 1.6 td04 manifolds to roll in.

Thanks for the bump on that one - was a great read.

This requires a more in depth response so I've pinged you a DM :)

That is very helpful thank you

As you may have guessed that was the thread I was quoting.

so much vendor fail in this thread its actually epic.

a pro tip to any start up company, never attack any one on a public forum, never slam the competition and only offer advise and help.

The uber defensive nonsense responses i saw in that thread are the worst marketing mistake a company can make.

it actually made me curious about the me221, so i googled "me221 reviews". there is nothing current, and the older 2015-2016 posts there is a strange fan-boi "pro tuners" that respond to all kind of different threads on different forums with the same copy/paste response praising the platform. very strange indeed....

Newbie internet mistakes really but I don't really appreciate the Title protip being added.
Makes it look like I wrote it which i did not.
Whilst evidence is certainly piling up a black and white statement like that is not helpful.

You've been a member here for far too long to seem surprised by the title-jack.

Oh I'm not surprised. This forum is always an up front honest place but when its bad mouthing deservedly or not when its your thread it feels dirty.

@sixshooter Ok I didn't expect that as a response but on a shitty monday morning it made me giggle.

This is nigh-on the setup i have on my NB8. MSLabs MS3 Mini, Kraken cast mani kit, 2560R, and the Bosch 640cc injectors. Cannot rate it (nor Bofi) highly enough. Great fitment and has allowed me to build a pretty stout DD without much hassle!

Pictures are required. Do you have any spool data for the 2560? It gives me head room which i may not need or maybe crucial dependent on how bitten i become. Although the TD04 idea is pretty good.

I comitted the "nono" as i need to keep the car super-squeaky-legal, so have a Cobalt sports cat midpipe and fairly baffled exhaust setup. I'm hitting 10psi by 3500 which i know is slow by many peoples standards. Tho there's more fiddling to be done with the tuning.

Dan @ Bofi has a 2554R on his 1.6, and that thing is just bonkers. If i had a 1.6, thats the route i would of gone. I made the mistake of driving his car in early Jan, which pretty much cemented i needed boost as to speed up the rate upon which i could acquire cats!

We ended up knocking it out over 4 days in May. Engine out, full service, sump modified + simple baffle installed, Fidanza superlight flywheel and Comp Clutches Stage 3 clutchkit, back in the car along with the Bofi sourced 640ccs, the Kraken mani & downpipe, and a brand spankers new 2560R. Oh, and a skidnation coolant reroute (with neck delete). Had issues with the OEM Garrett actuator, so ended up replacing it with the Kinugara one which ends up being nice and compact.

IC is down infront of the rad, is evacuated with a Forge TwinPiston DV, and boost control is done closed-loop on the MS3 with a MAC 3 port valve.

Where abouts in the country are you bud?

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...678b172ea.jpeg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...54caf6971.jpeg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...bf3a3fee1.jpeg

For what it's worth, i know the 2554 has more than enough potential to vent the block at full pelt, so i don't think you'd be giving up anything really significant if you went down to that instead of a 2560R, in lieu of some bonkers spool!

The kinushita actuator is the answer to your slow spool up.
Make a bracket for the stock actuator.

How so? There's no flex, and enough preload that the wastegate flap doesn't move until closed-loop commands it to.

I'd still take the 2.5" dp and sports cat as the most likely cause of not reaching 10psi before 3500rpm

Not that I am advocating this but does anyone know of turbo replacement tube?

So it is sized to T25, T3 blah blah sizing.
Is nothing more than a pipe.
Probably cast and probably only a few quid, bucks, euros, etc
Just bolts in place of the turbo to hold things together?

I realise I can knock one up with my MIG but it will be bad :D
I could feasibly cast it myself in aluminium using my 3D printer and the Mrs investment plaster but again it will be bad :D

I actually looked at doing this myself when i was over-worrying. Simplest thing i think would be to buy a blown T25, and just use the hot-side with a plate on the front edge or something.

Not a bad idea but finding one seems to be the issue.
A T25 turbine housing is £120 at cheapest and I can print, drink Pepsi, melt cans and cast for less than that.
Also the necessary amount is way less than the turbine housing because it is a pipe.

I do wonder if a foundry would cast my 3D printed mould.

Just break out the MIG, who cares if it looks nasty if it seals and is only a temporary measure?

Been reading lots of MS3 threads.

The K3 is a great ECU with all the MS3 features before MS had them but every time i change something its a trip to Dave.
The autotune does work don't get me wrong it just once I get there and its tuned its SO much better.
It seems the MS3 does a better job of approximation.

I may be suffering from fiddling envy or the annoyance may be that great.
Either way I've had a word.

If the little one wasn't here I'd be knee deep in trying to get all the sensors linked over CAN bus or something equally odd but satisfying.
As is I think my time is the premium.

For what its worth, thats why i went MS3 Mini - CAN support. I can use a microsquirt as an expander, or run standard canbus stuff in for when i want extra features that the mini can't provide (which isn't much given it has VVT and EBC support on board).

I was in a similar boat a few months back - I'd previously been running Adaptronic e420c for a very long time, as that was the ECU of choice in the UK back in the day (with great support from P5 and the UK forums), and it was technologically more advanced than MS1 / MS2 and better supported by local tuners.

The car was off the road for 4 years or so after an engine rebuild, then a better turbo kit came up which would necessitate a remap and some other fairly significant changes to the setup. I debated about a newer Adaptronic unit, but a second hand MS3 came up, so took a punt on it. There wouldn't have been anything stopping me from retuning the new setup with the adaptronic, but as you say, MS3 is way better supported. Tunerstudio Autotune / VEAL seems to work pretty well, and after a month of blindly fiddling with settings and reading advice on here, it's probably running better than it did previously - pretty steady idle, starts 1st turn from cold, throttle response is good etc. I'm outsourcing the actual mapping though as I'm not confident in my abilities at the moment - 18PSI / Vlad is taking care of that, and as it's a more interactive process than watching someone else map on a dyno for a morning, hopefully I'll learn more along the way :) Oh - sorry - I forgot. ME told us that there are no UK megasquirt tuners anymore as they have ALL dumped it in favour of their solution ;) Yah right! :P

There's also neat things you can do - with a cheap bluetooth adaptor and MSDroid I have an old Nexus4 on the dashboard which reads out all sorts of useful info - AITs, boost, water temp, pretty much any parameter the ECU has can be displayed in realtime.

I've also bought a TinyIOX board and 2 dual VR boards, which should allow me to read all of the inputs from my ABS sensors into the ECU via CANBus for traction control, as well as a digital wideband connection, and maybe some more sensors (oil temp/pressure etc) when I get round to it... CANBus really opens up options for future toys as well - digital dashboards seem to be going down that round now, as well as some of the dedicated gauge / instrument clusters. There's a few threads on here with 52mm gauges that can show loads of parameters, as well as a project with Arduino and a CAN interface that does similar.. Enough options to keep the geek in me happy ;)

Wow.
Links
WillT from the Moonies had a CAN digital dash back in the day so its been going that way for a long time. The tech is very simple and should be great.

MS3 Basic seems great but I cannot see a this has CAN bus tick anywhere.
Probably not looking in the right place as it seems to accept the CAN wideband.
I'm a data guy so would love to stick sensors everywhere to know exactly how shit i am.

Found the TinyIOx board.
Lots of options and cheap.

muuUUUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!
God the wife is going to kill me.

My comment about there being no MS tuners was slightly tongue in cheek, but they do like to bang on about how everyone loves them...

You can get the TinyIOX from : jbperf.com - DIY EMS Components

It's pretty neat - tiny little circuit that has a bunch of IO on it. There's also some larger boards that do other stuff on the site too. I'm pairing it with a couple of dual VR boards for a speeduino (£20 ea from ebay).

LOL they are just unbelievable.

As for adaptronic: I was one of the first US adaptronic e420c adopters and at the time the unit was definitely considered advanced. There were quite a few issues and bugs that needed to be worked out, I think the later batches were much easier to work with, but it still never really caught on much over here. Then MS3 was out and it was game-over for adaptronic, even though their newer ecu (the select? ) was competitive at least on paper.

The WARi software is garbage. It's just like the hydra 2.5 in most ways, which is also absolutely terrible. I always tell people: "you can always tell if the UI was created by an enthusiast who actually tunes cars vs some software guy who doesn't even own a car".

Has a pair of terminals you can solder pins onto for CAN, Flex, Table Switch, and VVT (top left on 2nd pic, labeled D13 VVT)

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WAY before i tinker with the CAN stuff i want to set up map switching.
Instead of the switch i have for the Emerald I want it automated for safety as I had problems when tinkering years ago.

Perfect oppertunity to pop some pins into those pads, and run them to a connector of some sort. I've got a DB9 i'm going to install on my case at some point to bring those 4 + the VVT pin out, so that i can do map switching and CAN shenanigans down the line.

For what it's worth, the MS3 supports limp-mode and similar smart stuff, so you can always setup triggers to limit things if issues arise!

I probably wouldn't go with a DB9 - I'd find an equivalent automotive grade connector (like a tyco connector similar to the ECU side), and use that instead if you are cutting holes in the case...

I figured if a DB37 was common place for aux connectors on MS' it'd be suitable for 5 pins total. The ECU case is already "holier" than stock to run the MAP feed in, and have a USB cable coming out!

It might be commonplace, but I'm not entirely convinced it's the best connector - it sticks out a long way and isn't particularly robust - just seems a bit of a half assed job only there because the original MS came with the same connector.

Although I've not seen them in the flesh, I like how the new MSPNP range from DIYAutotune have proper automotive connectors for the ECU plug and play bit and the additional MS breakout bits as well, instead of the DB37..

Fair comment! I shall look into some better alternatives!

Really the only benefit to a db connector is that it's cheap.

--Ian