sixshooter

iTrader: (12)

I used to 2 gallon cooler with a screw top lid with a gasket so when you corner it doesn't slosh out. I just saw one like it here at Lowes.

Dietcoke

Uh, no? Believe it or not, your car doesn't know the difference between an HDPE, and any other event (or non event). WOT at 100 on the track and WOT at 100 on a highway and WOT at 100 on a back road are all the same thing.

The whole point I was trying to make was that the risks aren't lower (or higher) just because it's an HPDE.

curly

iTrader: (25)

Savington

iTrader: (31)

Hopefully you see the same issue I see when these two statements are put together like this.

Dietcoke

Maybe in a car that takes 35 seconds to hit 110. lol

Schroedinger

sixshooter

iTrader: (12)

I applaud your decision.

As people we try to put the bad thoughts out of our heads a lot of the time. But we have stories here all the time about wheel hub failures at speed and brake failure at speed and all of the various things that can go wrong occasionally.

I don't put on a seat belt on the way to work expecting to have an accident that day but rather preparing in case I have an accident that day. I may go thousands of days between accidents commuting but the day I need it I really, really, really need it.

psreynol

In my opinion you are already ahead of the curve taking safety as seriously as you are during your first "real" season. when it comes to safety "all of it" is the right answer, however I appreciate you seeking a balance between doing events and not wanting to make your DD a dedicated track car. since you asked I'll offer my perspective. I don't see anything wrong with a balance between investment in safety equipment and expenditures on parts, maintenance, and track day fees but you really should do the same for driver and passenger sides.
I did many years in a Audi a4 with Schroth Rallye 4's on both driver and passenger side, for instructors. I totaled that car at Road America in the kink and the Schroth harness performed flawlessly, tore open the "give" seam and everyone walked away fine. I did several years in a 944T with a Racetec seat and harness on the driver side only, with a stock passengers set up, but I only took 1 passenger on track and I actually felt a little guilty after because they didn't know any better.
IMO it is not right to ask, invite, or accommodate someone into the passenger seat without the same belt and seat that you have, especially as a student seeking guidance from an instructor.
If this is going to be your hobby, sooner or later one realizes that having a car try to do duel duties becomes rather annoying. for now you are fine, especially in a stockish Miata, but as your experience increases, your mods increase, your speed increases, so should you focus on safety and please realize eventually when you have a crash you want the deck stacked your favor as much as possible. it might be minor hit or it might be a big one. HPDE is pretty safe relative to racing but still, people manage to mess up the same ways that cause issues during a race, driver fatigue and component failure as an example.
Ive been doing DEs since 2000, and I currently do not run a HANS, or a race suit, or cool suit. I have a rollbar, aluminum race seat, seat back brace, 6pt harness, harness bar, fire bottle, and helmet. my car is quick but not compared to many of the cars here. I should be wearing a balaclava, fire suit, hans, gloves, and I'm strongly considering a full cage and a race suit later this year. as others said, self preservation kicks in and that will hold back somewhat which is not necessarily a bad thing. the problem then becomes driving a fully caged car on the street is at least risky, and illegal in many places. driving to and from the track is my preferred mode of transport so back to the risk balance.

Savington

iTrader: (31)

The mortality of our sport not an easy thing to acknowledge, especially without having seen it in person at events. Kudos to you for being able to do that.

z31maniac

Even when I had my track rat, there was still roll bar, fixed-back FIA seats, harnesses, etc. That is the bare minimum for getting on track (I thought this was obvious).

I still think many here are being a bit extreme for the sake of being "safety conscious."

Then again, I used to track on 2 wheels, so perhaps I have a different view of risk.

Schroedinger

I'm a 40's guy with a family, and I've had enough brushes with my own mortality that I know I need to be responsible.

My last track day, I made a really stupid novice mistake at AMP. It was the fourth session, I wasn't totally focused and I came out of the grid a little too fired up on cold tires. At turn 2, probably the safest turn on the whole track, I turn the wheel and the car keeps going straight. I turn the wheel more, back end starts to slide out. Put two tires off, tried to correct the spin, and spun back the other direction going probably 60 mph. I'm not proud to post this, but here goes... maybe it can help someone else avoid making the same mistake.



Fortunately nothing bad happened to the car or the occupants. My instructor took it in good humor- funny that 2 wheels was mentioned, he used to be a professional motorcycle racer. Different perspective on risk indeed. In the previous three sessions, I didn't do anything that concerned him in the slightest. Somehow I didn't even get a black flag, although I pitted out anyway to check the car over.

The whole day before and after that, my car was feeling great and my driving was really solid and safe; then BAM, dumb mistake and I'm basically a passenger, out of control of the situation. I learned a lot from the experience, hence the questions about safety gear in this thread.

sixshooter

iTrader: (12)

I've got too many people counting on me to take as many risks as I once deemed acceptable.

Savington

iTrader: (31)

Exactly this.

z31maniac

I've just got one, but in the unfortunate event that something happened to me, she would be well taken care of. I hope my replies didn't come off as flippant in that regard. I completely understand wanting to take care of those that are important. I think we should be reasonable in regards to risk. But I do completely agree, if he has the safety equipment use it.

When I still did 2 wheels, Oklahoma, July/August......I was still in draggin' jeans, full SIDI boots, gloves, back brace, leather jacket.

Midtenn

iTrader: (15)

I use large frozen bottles and store them in a good cooler with dry ice. They'll stay frozen all weekend until needed. Pop the cap and throw it into the cool-shirt cooler. The bottle will last about 2-3hrs during an enduro.

DNMakinson

iTrader: (3)

The list of things "needed" to track a turbo Miata keeps growing and growing. SIGH!!!

Schroedinger

Tell me about it. I just bought another harness, seat and seat cover. And I'm shopping for cool shirts.

On a positive note, the months I spent installing the first seat should make installing the second seat much easier.

burdickjp

I really appreciate that you've approached this with some consideration rather than seeking validation for a decision you've already made.

Schroedinger

This got me thinking about risk in the general sense.

When I worked in the engineering/R&D world, we did Failure Mode Effects Analysis (FMEA) for all products in development. The idea is that risk takes on different forms, and you need to consider all of the forms to avoid tricking yourself into complacency. For each failure mode, we would rank the following on a scale from 1-10:

- Severity. How bad the outcome is
- Occurrence. How likely the failure is to occur
- Detectability. How easily you can prevent the failure before the bad stuff happens

You then multiply the numbers to get the RPN (risk priority number). High is bad.

If your failure mode was "vehicle fire on track", it would go something like this:
Severity- 10. You die or are permanently maimed. There's really nothing more severe.
Occurrence- 4. They're pretty unlikely, but I've already seen one at a track day, so I'm guessing maybe 1 in 2000 vehicles.
Detectability- 10. Caused by random events (crashes) or sporadic component failures outside of design parameters.

So even though a vehicle fire is unlikely, it would have a high RPN of 400, and be one of the most important failures to mitigate. In this case, with a fire suit.

By comparison, "lose keys".
Severity- 2. Worst case, you need to bum a ride home.
Occurrence- 4. I lose them sometimes, what can I say.
Detectability- 10. I don't know when I'm going to lose them, sometimes I just do.

So the RPN is 80. I mitigate it by leaving the damned keys in the ignition at the track.

I'm sure that professional race teams have done FMEA for this stuff. I would love to see it, it would really help people who are learning the sport.

codrus

I think that's overstating the case. IME, significant fires at track days (that is, the kind where fire suits would be relevant) are rare. In something 50-75 track days (I long ago lost count of how many I've been to), I haven't seen one yet. I have seen a few relatively minor fires -- a grass fire started by someone who went off track into dry weeds, a couple of oil leaks onto headers, that kind of stuff. I'm not trying to diminish the significance of those fires, but they offer a lot of warning of what's going on and give you time to grab an extinguisher or run away and call the professionals.

The kinds of fires where a fire suit is relevant are fast and hot, basically those where gasoline is getting sprayed onto an exhaust manifold or the like. The fire suit gives you less than 20 seconds of protection, it's basically designed so that if the car bursts into flames while out on the track it gives you enough time to stop the car and get the **** out (or if you crash, the car catches fire, and you are both conscious and sufficiently uninjured to get out on your own). A fire bottle will extend that time by a little bit more. See Charles Espenlaub's writeup on GRM here: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/ar...-and-survived/

Modern OEM designs are, in general, really good at preventing cars from bursting into flames. Unmolested OEM fuel lines in good repair rarely fail without being damaged in an accident, and OEM ECUs usually have provisions for automatically shutting off the fuel pump in those sorts of situations. Change this to a fuel system built out of generic aftermarket parts, installed by an amateur mechanic in his home garage, using an aftermarket ECU without those same crash provisions and it changes the balance.

Your average track day car is a lightly modified street car with an OEM fuel system. In such a car I'm not too worried about fire, and if that's the kind of car I was driving I probably wouldn't buy a fire suit (although I'd wear one if I already owned it). My car, OTOH, is more of the latter, thus the fire suit and AFFF fire system that I have installed.

--Ian