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Old 09-03-2014, 03:07 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by OGRacing View Post
DO NOT imply that there is ulterior motives to this, that simple statement could cost a life.
You're the one starting daily "Let's Discuss" threads on products you sell. People will imply what they want.

I'll say it again, I think you do a disservice by advocating so strongly against aluminum seats. In many cases, an aluminum seat will be a better, safer solution in a Miata for one simple reason . . . they FIT! They're easy to mount and properly brace. They can be mounted so that the seat system is easy to service and inspect.

What I often see with composite seats and Miatas is that they just don't fit, and people end up bashing car structure and taking shortcuts to somehow get them in. They get so frustrated that they'll accept compromised seating positions and mounts. And once they're in, they never want to touch or inspect them again, or do things like replace them or add back braces when they expire. Maintainability is an important facet of safety.

The fit/inspection/mounting aspect is the main reason I've got aluminum seats in my car. I'm extremely happy with them. I did a lot of research while planning my mounting system, and then welded my own. You could lift my car from the headrests. I'd recommend ButlerBuilt's website for guidance (ButlerBuilt Professional Seat Systems). Some really good stuff over there.

In a larger car, I probably would have gone composite. Don't know.
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Old 09-03-2014, 03:31 PM   #162
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If I were allowed to, I would get a custom made alu seat with all the options I could fit.
The simple reason is that all the reasonable FIA seats are 5points, not allowing a proper installation of a 6point belt, unless your crotch fills a really large volume. Just to clarify, 6pt means crotch straps goes rearward in an angle without rubbing against the edges of the holes.

A new FIA 8862-2009 seat for $4-5k or a Kidney for less than $1k?
And I'm pretty sure you will not be able to fit a FIA 8862-2009 seat in a miata, they look to be made for DTM and similar, where the cabin structure is built starting with the seat.

And if your body is nonstandard in any way (e.g. tall back), an off the shelf seat will always be less than perfect.
Taking the risk of being trapped in a bent/compressed alu seat compared of having the belt work as it should during the initial impact...
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Old 09-03-2014, 05:46 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NiklasFalk View Post
If I were allowed to, I would get a custom made alu seat with all the options I could fit.
The simple reason is that all the reasonable FIA seats are 5points, not allowing a proper installation of a 6point belt, unless your crotch fills a really large volume. Just to clarify, 6pt means crotch straps goes rearward in an angle without rubbing against the edges of the holes.
what? Fia seats accept 6 point harnesses.

Quote:
A new FIA 8862-2009 seat for $4-5k or a Kidney for less than $1k?
And I'm pretty sure you will not be able to fit a FIA 8862-2009 seat in a miata, they look to be made for DTM and similar, where the cabin structure is built starting with the seat.
99% of the Fia Seats cost less than 1k. I have kirkey full containment seats that are over 1k...

Aluminum seats can be safe if properly mounted and you have the correct seat for your application. I recommend FIA seats based upon the ease of the insulation. A FIA seat, Road racing is the recommended application.

Two Fia Seats mounted in a 99 miata.
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Old 09-03-2014, 06:28 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by OGRacing View Post
what? Fia seats accept 6 point harnesses.
"accepts" but you have to install them as 5point unless you are "full bodied".
In my case I have more than one inch of seat between my crotch and the rear edge of the hole in the seat bottom. No way to get the proper angles for a 6pt install.

It's only the newer FIA 8862 seats that are properly prepared for 6pt harnesses. It's a little sad, especially when you mention this to sales reps which response usually are "no customer have mentioned this before".

Am I that strangely built, tall back and small crotch?

My current OMP ARS works somewhat, but the back could have been 1-2 inch higher, and the 5th belt hole 2 inches further back. That the shoulder wing has been modified towards the door is just a normal miata compromise (so it's not FIA anymore...).
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Old 09-03-2014, 06:35 PM   #165
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your problem seems to be with the harness not the seat. Every manufacturer has a different take on how to mount a 6 point. the fact that you might not have adequate room under your seat needs to be taken into consideration. Next time determine what harness would allot you ample room.

Schroth

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Old 09-03-2014, 06:45 PM   #166
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Oh yeah, the Schrott harness I have is crap, I know.

The problem is that a harness should NEVER put forces over an edge in the seat.
Even if I would disregard that I would not be able to get the 6pt crotch straps to run down the inside of the thighs on each side of my junk, it would only go slightly forward down the hole.

Harness is the right one,
Mounting in the car is free (can be modified a lot, floor lowered etc),
Hole in the seat is in the wrong location, and seat cannot be modified.

Which of the three would you blame for a less than perfect install (my body is what it is)?
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Old 09-03-2014, 06:46 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hornetball View Post
You're the one starting daily "Let's Discuss" threads on products you sell. People will imply what they want.

I'll say it again, I think you do a disservice by advocating so strongly against aluminum seats. In many cases, an aluminum seat will be a better, safer solution in a Miata for one simple reason . . . they FIT! They're easy to mount and properly brace. They can be mounted so that the seat system is easy to service and inspect.

.
You are right, we do cover products that we sell. I've also recommended products that we don't. I've also Recommended not buying products that we sell based upon wrong application. I'll Say this one more time aluminum seats can be safe if you have the correct seat for your application and it's mounted correctly. A Kirkey Economy (that i Do sell) has no place in a road race car. it has no lateral support. if you slide off track sideways into concrete, your harness and seat will do very little to protect you.
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Old 09-03-2014, 06:57 PM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NiklasFalk View Post
Oh yeah, the Schrott harness I have is crap, I know.

The problem is that a harness should NEVER put forces over an edge in the seat.
Even if I would disregard that I would not be able to get the 6pt crotch straps to run down the inside of the thighs on each side of my junk, it would only go slightly forward down the hole.

Harness is the right one,
Mounting in the car is free (can be modified a lot, floor lowered etc),
Hole in the seat is in the wrong location, and seat cannot be modified.

Which of the three would you blame for a less than perfect install (my body is what it is)?
a Sub belt does bend around the hole in the seat. A sub strap is a locating strap. it will not carry as much load as a lap belt or shoulder straps. it's only job is to keep the harness on your hips. the other straps are not allowed to bend around the seat. if you're having trouble with the harness around the boys look into a formula harness. I have one in my miata, it's a royal Pain in the *** to get in and out of. once your in you can barely tell it's on.

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Old 09-03-2014, 07:06 PM   #169
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And that description is a 5pt install, where the crotch straps only function is to keep the lock down and prevent submarining by making the lap belt do their job with the hip bone.
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Old 09-03-2014, 09:50 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OGRacing View Post
You are right, we do cover products that we sell. I've also recommended products that we don't. I've also Recommended not buying products that we sell based upon wrong application. I'll Say this one more time aluminum seats can be safe if you have the correct seat for your application and it's mounted correctly. A Kirkey Economy (that i Do sell) has no place in a road race car. it has no lateral support. if you slide off track sideways into concrete, your harness and seat will do very little to protect you.
Well show me the correct way to mount an aluminum seat in a miata . I have found I/O Port Seat Back Brace and they recommend mounting 2 per seat and a Brey Krause Seat Back Brace....
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Old 09-04-2014, 09:21 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by AlwaysOnKill View Post
Well show me the correct way to mount an aluminum seat in a miata . I have found I/O Port Seat Back Brace and they recommend mounting 2 per seat and a Brey Krause Seat Back Brace....
We have covered it many times already. I'll post more links for you.
http://www.circletrack.com/safety/ct...ustom_install/
http://www.circletrack.com/safety/ct..._seat_install/
http://www.circletrack.com/safety/ct...g/viewall.html

FYI adding all of that additinal support + the cost of the seat. a Fia seat will be less expensive.
Kirkey 47 Road race seat.. $241.99
Seat cover for 47 RR seat $234.99
Brey Krause Sport Seat Back Brace $110
i/o Seat back brace X2 $220
total 806.98

a OMP WRC-R (that easily fits into a miata) is 779.00
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Last edited by OGRacing; 09-04-2014 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 10-29-2014, 06:56 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by hornetball View Post
It's a shame that vendors are directing you away from an aluminum seat or that you otherwise have some kind of bias against them. The UltraShields are light, fit with lots of room in a Miata and are extremely safe when correctly installed. Unlike composite seats, they don't deteriorate in sunlight. They're also made in Tyler, TX. After my experience with them, I would honestly never consider a composite seat.
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Both are dangerous when improperly mounted. But you're more likely to see an improperly mounted aluminum seat because they require you to drill your own holes, provide your own fasteners, and are generally cheaper than the comparable composite seat and thus more likely to be hacked.
.
Sorry for the bump from the dead but i was going thru some old posts and noticed this comment from hornetball. i needed to respond to have it on the books. i only suggest FIA seats for the eases of installation. it's much harder to install the Aluminum seats correctly. @ OG we do sell aluminum seats. but if you have no plans on taking the car to the fabricator (or fabricating mounts yourself) then a FIA seat is the way to go. Leafy hit the nail on the head, thank you sir.
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Old 01-19-2015, 10:18 AM   #173
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the season is coming up. anyone have questions over seats or harnesses?
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Old 01-19-2015, 01:17 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by OGRacing View Post
the season is coming up. anyone have questions over seats or harnesses?
Kind of off topic, but can you recommend a good 3 point for a street truck build?

And do those schroth profi 4 pts really work?
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Old 01-19-2015, 03:46 PM   #175
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Kind of off topic, but can you recommend a good 3 point for a street truck build?

And do those schroth profi 4 pts really work?
avoid the 4 points at all costs. I know schroth says they are safe. In their own video you can see the hip strap entering the dummy's gut. a 25 mph bump could be fatal as your gut can only take 3g's for force before internal damage. for reference your hips can take well over 50g's. that locating Sub strap is imperative.

for a street/track builds i encourage having the 3 point and 5/6 point harnesses.
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Old 01-19-2015, 03:56 PM   #176
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For an HPDE car would you ever recommend buying new in box but out of date 5/6 point harnesses?
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Old 01-19-2015, 04:14 PM   #177
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For an HPDE car would you ever recommend buying new in box but out of date 5/6 point harnesses?

That all depends on where the box was. Sunlight and weather can deteriorate a harness and that is the majority of the reasons harnesses and belts have an expiration date. Just make sure that the harness came from a warehouse that was kept mildly climate controlled (above freezing), and wasn't on display (sitting out in the sun). If you know the history then i don't see a problem. It would be better alternative to a 4 point.
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Old 01-20-2015, 12:03 PM   #178
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Factory 3pt is better than 4pt, but properly secured 5 or 6pt is best.

For a car that will be stored outdoors, remember that black pigment in plastic does not allow damaging UV radiation to travel as deeply into a material before being stopped as some other colors and therefore does last slightly longer. It doesn't effect expiration dates or anything, but if you aren't in a sanctioned race it doesn't matter.

More important to me it that the harnesses are mounted with large backing plates if mounted in the sheet metal of the car. A big zinc washer under the nut isn't enough.
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Old 01-20-2015, 12:53 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
Factory 3pt is better than 4pt, but properly secured 5 or 6pt is best.

For a car that will be stored outdoors, remember that black pigment in plastic does not allow damaging UV radiation to travel as deeply into a material before being stopped as some other colors and therefore does last slightly longer. It doesn't effect expiration dates or anything, but if you aren't in a sanctioned race it doesn't matter.

More important to me it that the harnesses are mounted with large backing plates if mounted in the sheet metal of the car. A big zinc washer under the nut isn't enough.
well said. Didn't know that about the black pigment, but will share.
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Old 01-20-2015, 01:00 PM   #180
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well said. Didn't know that about the black pigment, but will share.
Whoa!! Might need a bit more data there Six.

It does make sense to me that black inhibits penetration because it's such a great absorber. It's turning photons into heat, quickly.

But it is also absorbing more of the photons rather than reflecting them in the first place. You're into airplanes. You know something like a Velocity doesn't get painted black.

Overall result . . . I'm not sure? Is there test data somewhere we can reference?

It seems applying the above would be tricky at best.
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