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Old 10-09-2012, 06:29 PM   #41
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Go do the math to see how much more thermal mass, area and brake torque you have with the change from 11 to 11.75. It's not magic. Comparing apples to apples where the same caliper (piston area), pad and applied pressure is used, there just cannot be that massive of a difference (both setups properly ducted as well). I am sorry, but it is not like the slight increase in rotor size will give you 50% more break torque and thermal mass.

At your power levels (3x mine) you would probably be pushing the limits of the 11.75" kit too and completely overheating an 11" setup. You might want to look into the 13" setups that the FFR cobra track guys use.

Just like the factory calipers, if you are overheating the pad and reducing the coefficient of friction of the pad requiring more pad force for the same braking torque you will increase the load on the caliper and cause flexing even in a stiffer caliper. If you are overheating Dynalite pads to this point I would have to assume that you are eating pads and rotors as well, same problem as the undersized OEM setup. The big balled track gurus really need to speak to this one, I don't have real world experience on the Dynalites yet. If the 949 and trackspeed teams (several others too) can run these things with success for quite some time now I don't see why I can't use it on my NA setup, hell even for my goals of a <200whp turbo setup (One day!).
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Old 10-09-2012, 06:48 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by be good View Post
they dynalight is actually a terrible little caliper. i know i have them... i have 400 ish whp.
You also has LS1. You are not the target audience for this conversation. Calling a dynalite a "a terrible little caliper" is on the edge of trolling around here. I'm sure you have probably found the limits of the 11.75 TSE kit with your LS1 beast, sounds like you need to look way beyond what is being discussed in this particular thread.

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Originally Posted by be good View Post
ap makes a sick little caliper that will work on our cars.
...and that's a $330 caliper. What pattern pads does it use?

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Originally Posted by relte View Post
If the 949 and trackspeed teams (several others too) can run these things with success for quite some time now I don't see why I can't use it on my NA setup, hell even for my goals of a <200whp turbo setup (One day!).
And that's exactly it. TSE and countless others on this forum and in the Miata community at large have proven the viability of the Dynalite. For what we are talking about here, this looks like an ideal solution. Combine a cheap 11" rotor with the proven Dynalite caliper and highly avalible and cheap Dynalite pattern pads and you have a real winner.

EDIT: ...and someone banned "be good"

Last edited by Braineack; 10-10-2012 at 09:35 AM.
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Old 10-09-2012, 07:12 PM   #43
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Context is critical. This reminds me of a "what car should I buy" thread where a person lays out their criteria and then several people respond with suggestions that totally ignore that criteria, even if they are excellent options.


Good luck and keep us posted with your exploration.
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Old 10-09-2012, 07:16 PM   #44
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EDIT: ...and someone banned "be good"
Had to be a troll!
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Old 10-09-2012, 07:17 PM   #45
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The question that I still haven’t gotten answered is how big a benefit the 11” vs. 11.75” rotors would have with the same calipers and pads. Just the math on the available pad area, brake torque and thermal mass between a 11” and 11.75” rotor does not indicate to me that I am going to get any significant (read>15%) better wear rates or performance. Definitely not at my power levels.
Smaller rotors run hotter than larger ones forcing you to run a higher temp pad. Higher temp pads do not last as long as the lower temp version (ie XP12 vs XP10). All things being equal the larger rotor with it's cooler temps will have longer pad life but the real benefit will be not needing a higher temp pad. The XP10's far outlast the XP12's. I assume the same is true of the XP10 vs XP8's.
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Old 10-09-2012, 07:24 PM   #46
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Smaller rotors run hotter than larger ones forcing you to run a higher temp pad. Higher temp pads do not last as long as the lower temp version (ie XP12 vs XP10). All things being equal the larger rotor with it's cooler temps will have longer pad life but the real benefit will be not needing a higher temp pad. The XP10's far outlast the XP12's. I assume the same is true of the XP10 vs XP8's.
I don't doubt this at all. What I am saying is there is no way in hell that I am going to see 100's of degrees lower temp difference for an apples vs apples comparison of a 11 vs 11.75 setup. Will the 11.75" run cooler and wear slower, yes. How much and is it significant?

k24, you have a LSx right? I am sure when pushing even the 11.75" to its limits, every little bit helps. My goals are no where near that.

Sav or Emelio, what are the difference in wear rates, temps or failure rates of your old 11" kits vs. the newer 11.75" kits? I am making my assumptions based on basic geomerty differences and thermal mass. Is there some other mysterious factor that needs to be taken into account?
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:31 PM   #47
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Had to be a troll!
He's in the brake business.
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:52 PM   #48
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Looking at the 120-6806 Dynalite caliper specs it states the rotor width is 0.81" or 20.5mm, the Mini rotor is 22m thick, so is the Corrado rotor. Is this the same caliper that was used on the older Corrado kits. Or is the 1.00" rotor thickness (#120-6805) needed to fit a 22 mm rotor.
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:27 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by relte View Post
I don't doubt this at all. What I am saying is there is no way in hell that I am going to see 100's of degrees lower temp difference for an apples vs apples comparison of a 11 vs 11.75 setup. Will the 11.75" run cooler and wear slower, yes. How much and is it significant?

k24, you have a LSx right? I am sure when pushing even the 11.75" to its limits, every little bit helps. My goals are no where near that.

Sav or Emelio, what are the difference in wear rates, temps or failure rates of your old 11" kits vs. the newer 11.75" kits? I am making my assumptions based on basic geomerty differences and thermal mass. Is there some other mysterious factor that needs to be taken into account?
We don't use an 11.75" kit on anything we build or race. The very simple and pedestrian Wilwood based 949 Racing 11" kit we have works on cars running 300whp+. We ditch the crude Wilwood straight vane 160-5840 for our custom made directional rotors, add our own brake lines and Carbotechs.

We have pulled our directional rotors off Crusher after about 40 hours of racing and maybe 5 sets of XP12's and only seen about .010" wear. That's with zero fade and well, Crusher is sort of known for out braking pretty much everything it encounters.

OTOH, I have driven Hustler's car with TSE 11.75" front / Sport rears and it worked just as you would want race brakes to work. Also drove Rover with similar brakes and it's brakes are awesome. I think either 11.75 or 11" is a good choice and thermal mass differences are moot. Neither fades when set up correctly. Choice depends on which is better suited to your particular requirements, budget, etc.
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:48 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relte View Post
I don't doubt this at all. What I am saying is there is no way in hell that I am going to see 100's of degrees lower temp difference for an apples vs apples comparison of a 11 vs 11.75 setup. Will the 11.75" run cooler and wear slower, yes. How much and is it significant?

k24, you have a LSx right? I am sure when pushing even the 11.75" to its limits, every little bit helps. My goals are no where near that.

Sav or Emelio, what are the difference in wear rates, temps or failure rates of your old 11" kits vs. the newer 11.75" kits? I am making my assumptions based on basic geomerty differences and thermal mass. Is there some other mysterious factor that needs to be taken into account?
I believe there will be a 150+ delta between the two.

I don't have a V8 it's just a low HP BP with Rotrex.
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:17 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
We don't use an 11.75" kit on anything we build or race. The very simple and pedestrian Wilwood based 949 Racing 11" kit we have works on cars running 300whp+. We ditch the crude Wilwood straight vane 160-5840 for our custom made directional rotors, add our own brake lines and Carbotechs.

We have pulled our directional rotors off Crusher after about 40 hours of racing and maybe 5 sets of XP12's and only seen about .010" wear. That's with zero fade and well, Crusher is sort of known for out braking pretty much everything it encounters.
On a somewhat related note...

In the thread for the 95R Street Car, you mention you are running "OEM Sport Brakes with our two piece rotors and XP10's up front, XP8's in back."

Is that these SuperMiata 2-piece setup? $310 for the pair of rotors and $190 for a pair of friction rings? On your site you have the SuperMiata rotors labeled as for '01 - '05. Am I incorrect in understanding that the '94 - '97 calipers are the same as the Sport calipers?


Thanks.
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:13 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
We don't use an 11.75" kit on anything we build or race. The very simple and pedestrian Wilwood based 949 Racing 11" kit we have works on cars running 300whp+. We ditch the crude Wilwood straight vane 160-5840 for our custom made directional rotors, add our own brake lines and Carbotechs.

We have pulled our directional rotors off Crusher after about 40 hours of racing and maybe 5 sets of XP12's and only seen about .010" wear. That's with zero fade and well, Crusher is sort of known for out braking pretty much everything it encounters.

OTOH, I have driven Hustler's car with TSE 11.75" front / Sport rears and it worked just as you would want race brakes to work. Also drove Rover with similar brakes and it's brakes are awesome. I think either 11.75 or 11" is a good choice and thermal mass differences are moot. Neither fades when set up correctly. Choice depends on which is better suited to your particular requirements, budget, etc.

Thanks Emilio! That is what I suspected.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:21 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
Am I incorrect in understanding that the '94 - '97 calipers are the same as the Sport calipers?


Thanks.
Different calipers. We used those rotors on the 95R because we had them laying around and they look cool, not because they are cost effective (they aren't). Next years enduro and sprint car will use the 2 pc Sport rotor and caliper, switching to the Wilwood setup just for the Thunderhill 25 hours.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:21 PM   #54
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Can I use the Wilwood BP-10 pad on the street and DTC-60 pads on track with the same rotor, just swapping pads back and forth? Or do I need to keep a seperate track rotor?
If this can't work I was looking at a Hawk HPS street pad with the DTC-60 for track. I am pretty sure this would work. Too bad the HPS pads are almost twice the cost of the BP-10's and I can't find any HP+ pads for the street right now.

Any suggestions for other street pads that are compatible with the DTC-60 compund?

EDIT: Has anyone tried the DTC-05 compound on the street? how does it do as far as noise and dusting?

Last edited by Rallas; 10-10-2012 at 05:52 PM.
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Old 10-11-2012, 02:38 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by relte View Post
Can I use the Wilwood BP-10 pad on the street and DTC-60 pads on track with the same rotor, just swapping pads back and forth? Or do I need to keep a seperate track rotor?
If this can't work I was looking at a Hawk HPS street pad with the DTC-60 for track.
After reading this thread and spending some time putting together a spreadsheet comparison of the different brake upgrade kits out there, this question is now relevant to my interests.
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Old 10-11-2012, 03:28 PM   #56
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OTOH, I have driven Hustler's car with TSE 11.75" front / Sport rears and it worked just as you would want race brakes to work.
150hp, 400hp brakes, lol. That sport master is in there too, with a Wilwood bias valve.

I haven't seen this discussed yet, and people who don't have gigantic brakes may not realize it...the best part about my experience with the TSE brake is that it doesn't matter which corner on any track, no matter how many laps in, no matter how word the pads, the brake pedal feels exactly the same, every time. When I drove TWS CW and entered the first turn at 161mph on the rev limiter, and cut ~90mph off through the apron, the pedal felt the same as squeezing of 50mph-40-mph-40mph at MSR-H in sweeper, bus stop, key hole, and launch back to back.

That gives you a ton of confidence on corner entry and lets you do things on corner entry that I'm guessing 75% of competitive drivers can't do. I learned recently that there is a ton of speed to be had in corner entry and brakes are getting me there faster and cheaper than the turbo did.

The downside is when it was 96*f out I could not get enough heat in the front rotors and had to plug my brake ducts at MSR-C 1.7CW. The pedal felt the same, but the rotors never had a layer of pad on them. However I was destroying the SM guys in every corner on braking especially the last corner in the triple-apex, down the hill, way off camber, 90*, decreasing radius right (most complex series of corners on any local track). They way I eat up people on the brakes there is shocking with such a dramatic closing rate that you have to back off ~300 feet prior to the braking point or you will go off track because the closing-rate is so extreme...and the diff helps too since there is no more trail-brake hop. I wish I had video.
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Old 10-11-2012, 03:54 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
After reading this thread and spending some time putting together a spreadsheet comparison of the different brake upgrade kits out there, this question is now relevant to my interests.
I know, right?

While the TSE 11.75 is ****, its more than I can do for a dual use car.

The OTS 11" Wilwood kit that 949 sells looks ideal, but the damn friction rings are $94 each for the ones with the correct venting. The Wilwood 160-5840 (11x.810) replacement rings (non directional) are $81 through Summit. If I swap pads at the track that don't have compounds that play nice together, I need to buy an additional $200 worth of rotors. Guhhh...

The Corrado rotor Dynalite caliper combination sounds like win, except for the whole lack of venting thing with the Corrado rotor. I'm sure back in the day, the Corrado rotor was the logical choice, and I understand why no one really carries it anymore.

I also believe there is still space in the market for something that:
  • eliminates the stock caliper
  • has a super wide selection of pads
  • lets you run a super cheap rotor you can buy at any chain parts store
  • lets you run a larger diameter rotor
  • fits under a stock 15" rim with minimal or even no spacer
  • when properly ducted gives you even 80% of the performance of the 11.75 kit.

I had the 11" 949/Wilwood kit in my shopping cart @ 949 for weeks, but ultimately didn't do it because of the rotor cost & availability. If I have a rotor crack on me or something else goes wrong, I don't want to be stuck waiting for parts by mail. I'd rather get a lift to the Napa/Kragen/Vatozone to get a rotor, or keep a $22 spare in my tool box, than take the AAA taxi home. I'm sure hustler will jump in here and tell me to zip up my man suit, but again, I don't have $2000 to spend on a brake/rim/tire upgrade.

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Originally Posted by relte View Post
Looking at the 120-6806 Dynalite caliper specs it states the rotor width is 0.81" or 20.5mm, the Mini rotor is 22m thick, so is the Corrado rotor. Is this the same caliper that was used on the older Corrado kits. Or is the 1.00" rotor thickness (#120-6805) needed to fit a 22 mm rotor?
I'd still love to see an answer to this if anyone knows/remembers.
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Old 10-11-2012, 04:32 PM   #58
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Just to throw in a caliper inspired by AP Racing (I assume)
R132-4 Radial to Suit 275mm Disc/Rotor
For 11" disks and radial mount.
How slim towards the wheel? I don't know.
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Old 10-11-2012, 05:12 PM   #59
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I am personally a believer that "can't use same rotor with different pads" is bullshit.
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Old 10-12-2012, 02:32 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by hustler View Post
I haven't seen this discussed yet, and people who don't have gigantic brakes may not realize it...the best part about my experience with the TSE brake is that it doesn't matter which corner on any track, no matter how many laps in, no matter how word the pads, the brake pedal feels exactly the same, every time.
Yeah it's absolutely fantastic until you are the first session out in 50f weather on a wet track. Finally built a little confidence in the tires having grip, going into turn 9 at Putnam Park and I found a very nice slick spot. That was absolutely terrifying, felt like the car was on ice for a split second before some grip could be found. My dad was in the car and had no idea anything abnormal happened but I was sure the car was going straight off the track and into the trees.

I've only had them long enough for one track event but they are seriously awesome.
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