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Old 10-16-2012, 09:52 AM   #81
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by curly View Post
How's this for maths:

standard brakes:
$60 pad x 15 track days = $900

wilwood brakes:
$500 kit + ($60 pad x 5 track days) = $800

With the right track stock calipers will go through pads in a day. 14 track days is 2-3 seasons I would say for the average track rat.

With said $500 kit letting pads lasting about 3 times as long, you've made up for the upgrade cost in 2-3 seasons.

Granted one must look at rotor costs, which are $20 more per pair than stock units. So that $100 difference makes up for that.
What are you using for those maths? The 949 kit is $599 with base rotors and Wilwood BP-10 pads and about $762 by the time you add Carbotech pads and directional rotors.

Replacement rotors for the stock setup are ~$20 - $25 each. Directional friction rings are $94 each. Base friction rings are $81 each.


Meanwhile, stock-sized XP-8s are $135 for the front. Hawk DTC-60s for the Dynalites are $70 for the front.

Last edited by Scrappy Jack; 10-16-2012 at 09:55 AM. Reason: Added pad pricing.
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Old 10-16-2012, 10:16 AM   #82
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He was doing the math for a TSE BBK but the kit is $550 not $500. However, you are still saving money.
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Old 10-16-2012, 11:53 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Ryan_G View Post
He was doing the math for a TSE BBK but the kit is $550 not $500. However, you are still saving money.
The kit is $550 if you already have the 11" kit. If you have no kit, it's $900 + pads.
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Old 10-16-2012, 03:30 PM   #84
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I call BS, hawk blues will last several track days, like 4-5 days, at $70 a set. So what? (if you have to throw in $40 for stock rotors twic as often)

Last edited by Ski_Lover; 10-16-2012 at 05:29 PM.
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Old 10-16-2012, 06:55 PM   #85
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I presonally prefer the pedal feeling the same every time I go fot it. I thought the Carbotechs were gonna work great since they were very consistant on the first two days, but after that I would never really know how much pedal pressure would be needed to stop for the same turn as the pads became hotter and overheated. Throwing a pad away that still has 30-50% material left because it tapered so bad is just a waist.

I am not even concernced with anything related to the use of the factory calipers any more. I can get the same $$$ savings by running the 11" mini rotors than what the 11.75" guys get due to the use of same caliper/pads and $20-$25 rotors.

How does 949 sell the 11" kit for that cheap? I don't see how they do it that cheap with Wilwood hats and rotors.
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Old 10-16-2012, 08:35 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relte View Post
How does 949 sell the 11" kit for that cheap? I don't see how they do it that cheap with Wilwood hats and rotors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by curly View Post
wilwood brakes:
$500 kit + ($60 pad x 5 track days) = $800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_G View Post
[Curly] was doing the math for a TSE BBK but the kit is $550 not $500. However, you are still saving money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
The kit is $550 if you already have the 11" kit. If you have no kit, it's $900 + pads.

The $550 TSE kit consists of:
-Two Trackspeed Engineering 11.75" Wilwood brackets
-Two Wilwood 11.75" rotor assemblies (spacer, rotor, hat, and hardware)

It is an upgrade for those that purchased their now-discontinued 11" complete kit.
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Old 10-16-2012, 10:42 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski_Lover View Post
I call BS, hawk blues will last several track days, like 4-5 days, at $70 a set. So what? (if you have to throw in $40 for stock rotors twic as often)
You can have the set off my car then. 3 days on the track and they have a slight taper. You can have the rotors too. I got lucky and they tapered on the last session, would have really sucked to sit half a day or more out at Hallett just because I was unprepared and didn't install track worthy equipment.

There is no better feeling going into turn 1 and watching the back end come around because suddenly the same braking point that worked all day was now insufficient.</sarcasm>

Mini rotors + Wilwood sounds pretty sweet to me, if you have the time and ability to fabricate (I don't). I really gotta hand it to TSE for saving my next track day. Andrew shipped the kit 2-day for a very reasonable price and I had a tracking # less than an hour after ordering. There was even a kick *** shirt in the box with it.
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Old 10-17-2012, 06:41 PM   #88
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curly, do you know if the hardware in the kits are the fine pitch -24 ot coarse pitch -16 bolts?
I have all the taps and bolts on hand to do 3/8-16 hardware, but since the metric stuff is fine pitch I am wandering if I should use fine pitch standard hardware.

Also, do these kits use steel inserts on the 2 bolt holes that are used for the caliper attachement (in the thinner cossection). I ended up with a 0.312" crossection for the caliper lugs in order to get the correct offset for the Mini rotors using 3/4 plate. The Miata manual only calls for 28-35 ft lbs on these bolts and I tested them up to 75 ft/lbs without stripping the threads so I am thinking I will be ok with clean threads tapped directly into the 6061 aluminum with no steel inserts.
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Old 10-17-2012, 09:13 PM   #89
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I don't know the pitch, and no, there aren't any steel inserts. I don't torque them, I get them good and tight.

The maths are...estimated. I used Goodwin's $500 price for their front only kit. It also all depends on how hard you are on brakes.

I was also using Hawk HP+ prices, they're $60 for wilwoods, I think roughly the same for stock pads. But ok, race pads. Roughly $100 for both, plus or minus $50. Fact of the matter is you're going to be throwing away half a stock pad.
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Old 10-18-2012, 11:07 PM   #90
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I found a good deal on some bulk order 3/8" -24 fine pitch Grade 8 bolts. Looking at the crossectional area of the bracket lugs attaching to the caliper (thinner crossection than hub lugs) it looks like each 6061 bracket will be able to take over 8000lbf from the caliper, so I think there will be more than enough material there to hold the bracket in place, no steel insert required to spread the load.

Now if I can only get some time this weekend to get the first prototype bracket fabbed up.

Can we keep this thread on topic? Wilwood calipers on 11" Mini rotors instead of 11" Corrado rotors.

I already gave up on using OEM calipers which was the main thing driving cost savings so I have no desire to discuss why going to Dynalite 7112 pads save so much money along with the sub $30 rotors. If you still believe that the factory caliper is a better/acceptable solution, please discuss it somewhere else.
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:24 AM   #91
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Ok so in my experience's the carbotechs suck for pedal feel...they feel numb. I've run hawk DTC 60's for near 2 years and have never looked back. When i had 1.8 brackets on my car i suffered from pad taper...easy fix? Flip the pads after every event, it literally takes 5minutes, just remove one slide pin and pull caliper. I've doubled the pad life when i started to do that. With 1.6 brackets and rotors on the car they don't taper much at all. I've also have run brake cooling ducts on the car for quite a while.

140hp
2400ish lbs

Putting 11" brakes on a miata making NA HP is silly IMO. All depends on what you're planning on doing with the car, racing? TT? just DE's? The pad money savings you'll have from going to a wilwood caliper is attractive, but at what cost?
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Old 10-21-2012, 07:12 PM   #92
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Are the centering rings included with the TSE, 949 or M-tuned kits an interference fit around the hubs? I still cannot find my set of M-tuned front brackets to see how their centering rings fit. The first set I made fit tightly around the hub (not interference fit though) and fit snugly between the rotor in hub to line everything up. I made a lip on my spacer rings so that the rotor will keep the rings in place, but was wondering if the other kits keep their centering rings in place with an interference fit over the hub instead.
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Old 10-25-2012, 05:14 PM   #93
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I finally got something fabbed up. With a baby due in 4 weeks and working night shift on a refueling outage, I have not had too much free time.

Mocking it all up under the wheel it looks like I will have more than enough clearance around the 11 Mini rotor. I have right at 1/8 clearance to the wheel spokes, a lot more than I expected. Radially there is over room, I was able to slide a piece of scrap around all the tight spots with room to spare. This makes me wonder if I could fit the 11.5 Mini Turbo rotors under the factory wheel. I am confident that I can make it fit with a 3-5mm spacer. I might have to run to the parts store and get one 11.5 rotor to see how it all fits up.
Attached Thumbnails
MINI 11&quot; rotor instead of Corrado-imag3019.jpg   MINI 11&quot; rotor instead of Corrado-imag3020.jpg   MINI 11&quot; rotor instead of Corrado-imag3024.jpg   MINI 11&quot; rotor instead of Corrado-imag3025.jpg  
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Old 10-25-2012, 05:55 PM   #94
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Hot crackers! That's good news right there!

Props for the update, and the project!
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Old 10-25-2012, 06:24 PM   #95
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Nice!
Would the same thing be possible with the stock caliper? I don't track my car (yet).
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Old 10-25-2012, 07:04 PM   #96
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I was thinking about making a bracket that will allow the use of the Mini rotor with the factory 1.8 caliper and bracket. My wife’s 97 and my dad’s 99 will never see forced induction and have no need for the upgraded calipers at this point, the larger rotor surface can only help to reduce wear rates and keep temperatures down. If there is enough interest I can fab up a few sets and let you guys test them. It will be a while before I get to that though. I really think I would be able to fit the 11.5” when using the factory caliper, which would make it really interesting. Let me know if there is interest.
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Old 10-25-2012, 09:39 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relte View Post
I was thinking about making a bracket that will allow the use of the Mini rotor with the factory 1.8 caliper and bracket. Let me know if there is interest.
There is interest. Let me know.
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Old 10-26-2012, 05:47 PM   #98
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Me too.
I have 1.6 brakes. I think they are fairly good brakes for the Miata. It does what it needs to do. But never attempted to use the brakes twice or more with short intervals. That makes the difference with the track-guys out here. I am an fairly easy and smooth driver.

But I am forcing the induction now. So a bit more stopping assurance might be a good thing. I have looked at the Wilwood sets and I sure like them. I would go for Dynapro's though as I have 15" wheels and these might fit 11.75 discs. The Mini kit. BUT... Using the 11 or 11.5 disc from the Mini would save me a lot of money and would probably be good for the time being.
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Old 10-27-2012, 02:17 PM   #99
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You shouldn't need more brakes on the street if you have good pads. If you are fading brakes on the street you are driving nuts on the street. Upgrading to 1.8 brakes will give you a good bit more brake avaliable. Getting the 1.8 brackets gets you bigger pads too and you need 1.8 brackets for the m-tuned kit and if I do end up looking at making a bracket to fit factory caliper and 1.8 bracket to 11" mini rotor There is no point to use the 1.6 pads and brackets. You can get the 1.8 brackets for much cheaper these days. Check out panicmotorsports, I think Steve sells the 1.8 brackets for pretty cheap.It will be a while before I mess with the brackets for factory calipers, I want to get the Wilwoods working first.
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Old 10-28-2012, 03:00 AM   #100
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I picked up a 11.5" Mini rotor this morning and mocked it up. It does not look like the Wilwood caliper will fit under the 15" NB wheel without at least a 3mm spacer. I am sure I could pull it off with 5-6mm spacer since it clears the wheel radially but rubs agains the back of the spokes. The radial clearance is only about 1/16", a spacer might increase the gap a little, but I doubt it would be too much more. The 11.5" rotor is like 2-3 lbs heavier too. I don't think it will be worth it. If you want bigger than 11" it is clear that TSE and 949 have the only answer with their 11.75" kits.

I mocked up the 1.8 caliper and bracket on the 11.5" rotor to see if it would work any better, but it rubbed radially instead. The inside of the caliper bracket is interfering with the rotor due to the much larger radius of the 11.5" rotor vs. the 1.8 rotor. I could remove some material on the outer edges to easily get the needed clearance. I don't think it would be a great idea to weaken the caliper in an area that already needs to be stiffer to minimize pad tapering.

I am going to stick with the 11" Mini rotor with the Wilwood for now. I will have to see about doing the factory caliper on the 11" later for my 97 and my dad's 99.
Attached Thumbnails
MINI 11&quot; rotor instead of Corrado-imag3058.jpg   MINI 11&quot; rotor instead of Corrado-imag3059.jpg   MINI 11&quot; rotor instead of Corrado-imag3061.jpg   MINI 11&quot; rotor instead of Corrado-imag3057.jpg   MINI 11&quot; rotor instead of Corrado-imag3053.jpg  

MINI 11&quot; rotor instead of Corrado-imag3063.jpg   MINI 11&quot; rotor instead of Corrado-imag3067.jpg  
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