Super Touring Light Miata (SCCA STL Class) - Page 2 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Race Prep Miata race-only chat.
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-06-2012, 07:10 PM   #21
Newb
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 18
Total Cats: 9
Default

Porting on the head is limited to port matching only, to 1 inch in. Compression was 10.8:1 on that engine.
Edens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2012, 07:52 PM   #22
Elite Member
iTrader: (4)
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 3,052
Total Cats: 7
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tblackey View Post
STU is going to be tough. A friend of mine is building an S2000 with about 300 Crank HP and revs to 10K RPM. To be competitive you would need boost, and even then I'm not sure.
You do know that a turbo miata finished second in STU at the runoffs this year right?

I think an S2000 would be a good STU car but it would be an expensive build. That and even a 300hp S2000 will probably have trouble competing with the A4 that won this year.
Efini~FC3S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2012, 11:19 AM   #23
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 175
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S View Post
You do know that a turbo miata finished second in STU at the runoffs this year right?

I think an S2000 would be a good STU car but it would be an expensive build. That and even a 300hp S2000 will probably have trouble competing with the A4 that won this year.
Any lower powered car will always have a hard time competing at Runoffs, for obvious reasons.
cucamelsmd15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2012, 09:04 PM   #24
Elite Member
iTrader: (4)
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 3,052
Total Cats: 7
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cucamelsmd15 View Post
Any lower powered car will always have a hard time competing at Runoffs while it's run at Road America, for obvious reasons.
Fixed that for you. If the runoffs return to a place like Mid-Ohio it will no longer be a horsepower race...


Wait....was that the obvious reason...
Efini~FC3S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2012, 09:07 PM   #25
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 175
Total Cats: 0
Default

Yes.
cucamelsmd15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2012, 12:27 PM   #26
Newb
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 14
Total Cats: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S View Post
You do know that a turbo miata finished second in STU at the runoffs this year right?

I think an S2000 would be a good STU car but it would be an expensive build. That and even a 300hp S2000 will probably have trouble competing with the A4 that won this year.

Yes, I'm aware , but it's a new class and cars will continue to get more developed and faster. Maybe a turbo Miata can compete, but it will get harder each year for the next couple as bigger budgets / better developed cars get involved in the class. STU is going to be a very expensive class.
tblackey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2012, 02:06 PM   #27
Elite Member
iTrader: (4)
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 3,052
Total Cats: 7
Default

Bigger budgets? Lol, the last two STU national champs were running $80,000 ex-world challenge cars.

My understanding is the SCCA want's to get away from that but yes, I agree, STU is going to be a very expensive class. That's why we're not building any STU cars from our 3 T3 S2000s. The car we ran at the 25hr at Thunderhill did finish 5th in STU at the runoffs...
Efini~FC3S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2013, 02:44 PM   #28
Elite Member
iTrader: (4)
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 3,052
Total Cats: 7
Default

Really old thread

BUT

SCCA just released new rules for next year and there are quite a lot of changes for STL.

RWD penalty increases to 5.5%, so a 1.8 miata has to run at 2635 lbs. EEP

FWD 2 liter strut cars (ie 2006 Civic Si) run at 2633 lbs.

Anyone have experience racing a miata at 2600lbs......?

They also added restrictors to the RX8 and the Honda K20 motor. 45mm for the RX8, 50mm for the K20.

Emilio asked earlier about contingencies and these have also been changed since this post first started. In 2013 Mazdaspeed paid $800 for a Majors win in STL, and usually there are two races in a Majors weekend. So, in a competitive STL miata (there's a few around the country) you could be looking at $1600+ in a race weekend (+ equals tires, brake pads, Summit contingency, etc.)


I was thinking building an STL miata could be pretty fun and not too crazy expensive (at least on a regionally competitive level) but I don't know now that they've up'd the weight to over 2600lbs. That just seems crazy for a miata...
Efini~FC3S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2013, 03:53 PM   #29
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (3)
 
emilio700's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,323
Total Cats: 1,344
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S View Post
Really old thread

BUT

SCCA just released new rules for next year and there are quite a lot of changes for STL.

RWD penalty increases to 5.5%, so a 1.8 miata has to run at 2635 lbs. EEP

FWD 2 liter strut cars (ie 2006 Civic Si) run at 2633 lbs.

Anyone have experience racing a miata at 2600lbs......?

They also added restrictors to the RX8 and the Honda K20 motor. 45mm for the RX8, 50mm for the K20.

Emilio asked earlier about contingencies and these have also been changed since this post first started. In 2013 Mazdaspeed paid $800 for a Majors win in STL, and usually there are two races in a Majors weekend. So, in a competitive STL miata (there's a few around the country) you could be looking at $1600+ in a race weekend (+ equals tires, brake pads, Summit contingency, etc.)


I was thinking building an STL miata could be pretty fun and not too crazy expensive (at least on a regionally competitive level) but I don't know now that they've up'd the weight to over 2600lbs. That just seems crazy for a miata...
I was looking at this recently. The contingencies attract me just like everyone else contemplating an STL Miata. Engine won't be cheap. It will need every bit of power it can get against 250whp Hondas that weigh a lot less. Cam design would be critical as that's where all the power is with these rules. There is enough freedom in the engine rules to warrant maybe $10k worth of power making hardware alone. $4000 diff set up, etc.
I think the max a legal STL Miata can make is around 185whp on 100 Sunoco. That will get its *** kicked on power courses like ACS, PIR,MRLS but might be enough on handling courses like BRP, TRP, Sonoma, et al

The ROI is potentially better with an STL Miata than just about any other class a Miata can run in except SM. For me, the ROI isn't worth racing a car that intrinsically I just don't want to drive. I'm too much of a car/driving geek, wanting to race a car only if it feels a certain way. No aero, skinny wheels, heavy as an S2000 (ugh). I raced NASA PT for three years and that was a $$$ black hole, even winning a lot. Fields too small unless you run Spec Miata though.

It hope somebody figures it out and win runoffs in an STL Miata. Of course that would earn a bigger weight penalty..
emilio700 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2013, 05:22 PM   #30
Elite Member
iTrader: (4)
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 3,052
Total Cats: 7
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
Engine won't be cheap. It will need every bit of power it can get against 250whp Hondas that weigh a lot less.
Which Hondas have 250whp? The car I drove to 4th at the runoffs this year dyno'd 210whp (on a calibrated Dynapack). Chad Gilsinger's car (finished 2nd, ahead of Jim Drago in the highest finishing miata) made 207whp on the same Dynapack.

Both of those cars have bone stock engines internally, except for the cam (which is a stock cam ground down to meet the 0.425" lift).

John Schmitt had the highest whp Honda in the race, and his car dyno'd 224whp also on a Dynapack. John's motor was built more to the limit of the rules, but not 100%.

Regardless, unless we're talking about Church's dyno, no one was running 250whp in STL, and I seriously doubt you could make 250whp within the STL ruleset (unless you're running an RX-8). Especially, now with the 50mm restrictor. I'm guessing the car I ran will make under 200whp after the restrictor.

Also the K20 powered Hondas weigh 2633 lbs in strut form, and 2700lbs in double wishbone form. So which 250whp Hondas weighed a lot less than a miata would? The B16 or B18 Hondas would weigh significantly less, but none of those cars were very competitive this year, and none of them made as much whp as the K20 powered cars. My car weighed 2680lbs at the end of the Runoffs race, I couldn't even get close to the min weight...

Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio700
Cam design would be critical as that's where all the power is with these rules. There is enough freedom in the engine rules to warrant maybe $10k worth of power making hardware alone. $4000 diff set up, etc.
I think the max a legal STL Miata can make is around 185whp on 100 Sunoco. That will get its *** kicked on power courses like ACS, PIR,MRLS but might be enough on handling courses like BRP, TRP, Sonoma, et al
I have almost zero experience with N/A miatas so I would defer to your experience.

Supposedly Drago's miata made 190-200whp. I talked with him during tech, but I never asked exactly what he made, nor did I really check out his car. I believe it's a '99 motor with a BP4W head. I don't think he's running a VVT motor but I might be wrong.

I was never around Drago on the track after I got taken out in T1 on the 2nd lap, but based on the straightline speed of Dragos car compared to Chad's civic, I would guess the 190whp is a safe bet.

From my Grand AM experience MRLS is not a horsepower track, and I think the ST results from the last few years show that. MX5s have dominated at that track, the high hp, high tq cars in the class weren't even close. That said, I think a miata would have a decent chance at the 2014 Runoffs at MRLS. That is if no one shows up in a well sorted RX8.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio700
The ROI is potentially better with an STL Miata than just about any other class a Miata can run in except SM. For me, the ROI isn't worth racing a car that intrinsically I just don't want to drive. I'm too much of a car/driving geek, wanting to race a car only if it feels a certain way. No aero, skinny wheels, heavy as an S2000 (ugh). I raced NASA PT for three years and that was a $$$ black hole, even winning a lot. Fields too small unless you run Spec Miata though.
ROI and racing probably don't belong in the same paragraph...

My feeling on the whole driving a "shitty" race car is this: I'd rather drive a bad race car against a lot of competition, then drive the most fun, most balanced car at an HPDE or TT. Competition against a lot of cars is where it's at, and usually that means driving a car you don't get to chose the rule-set for. STL had the third highest car count in all SCCA racing last year, behind only Spec Miata and Spec Racer Ford. To me, STL is much, much more appealing than those other two classes.

Honestly, in most of the Grand AM races I did last year, our car did not feel great. Driving FWD cars, set up to kill you, on the hairy edge isn't exactly fun, but the competition is amazing so it makes it worthwhile.

I think following your own formula (well, a much cheaper formula than maybe you usually use) you could build a fairly competitive STL car for not too much money. It wouldn't be fast enough to win the runoffs, but it would be fast enough to win at most of the Majors races. Mostly because the Majors races are people just double dipping their SM cars, and other people running not super competitive cars. I think someone with a 165whp, 2600lb miata, well sorted and with some decent aero could do okay in the Northern and Eastern Majors tours.

Last edited by Efini~FC3S; 12-05-2013 at 08:58 PM.
Efini~FC3S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2013, 11:06 PM   #31
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (3)
 
emilio700's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,323
Total Cats: 1,344
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S View Post
Which Hondas have 250whp?
Just guessing on Honda K20 outputs based on my limited experience hanging the guys at Jackson Racing and Skunk2. I'll defer to your expertise there.

ROI. Yah, it's dumb. I didn't say it made sense but you have to factor in cost if you are paying all expenses yourself. It sounds like you buy some seats and are given others for free. Mostly not racing your car so the $30-100k it takes to build and show up at the track isn't always prime consideration. You and I are different animals. I tinker, develop parts and tuning knowledge that many others benefit from. So what I drive matters. To some extent, you're a bit of a hired gun. Thus, you tend to just hop in and do the best you can. I try to make the car I already like competitive. I know it makes no sense to you and probably sounds stupid. Makes perfect sense to me and a few thousand of my friends and customers around the world.

You have made a few sideways remarks about someone with my driving experience racing in classes with little or no competition. I don't like it either but I have even less interest in driving a car I don't enjoy driving (that also costs a bunch to build) in a huge field of competitive drivers. I don't think you should bother trying to "get it". I'm not dumb, or afraid of competition, I just drive for different reasons than you do.
emilio700 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2013, 10:24 AM   #32
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Greenville SC
Posts: 87
Total Cats: 0
Default

[QUOTE=hingstonwm;815644]

As far as hp, 180 whp seems to be good for a 1.8 ep car, 150 is big for a limited prep f car. My car dynoed at 154 and 112#, with intergal 4 cams, 10:1 Pistons and the allowed porting and crank work. Tuned on 100 octane race gas./QUOTE]

What's the word on Integral Cams? I got my Stage 4 back in 2005, but then I was told they closed shop. Then reopened in new state. Is the product still the same? My Stage 4 were hyraulic, as solids were not legal then. Are your cams set up for the solid lifters?

I am building a new engine for my FP, but will use solids this time. Don't know which cams to use at this point.

??My quotes don't come out in the nice box everyone else gets? My computer or what?

Last edited by Team DNR; 12-07-2013 at 01:49 PM. Reason: Quotes problem
Team DNR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2013, 10:35 AM   #33
Elite Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 1,970
Total Cats: 49
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Team DNR View Post

As far as hp, 180 whp seems to be good for a 1.8 ep car, 150 is big for a limited prep f car. My car dynoed at 154 and 112#, with intergal 4 cams, 10:1 Pistons and the allowed porting and crank work. Tuned on 100 octane race gas./QUOTE]

What's the word on Itegral Cams? I got my Stage 4 back in 2005, but then I was told they closed shop. Then reopened in new state. Is the product still the same? My Stage 4 were hyraulic, as solids were not legal then. Are your cams set up for the solid lifters?

I am building a new engine for my FP, but will use solids this time. Don't know which cams to use at this point.

??My quotes don't come out in the nice box everyone else gets? My computer or what?
No, you cut off the ending [ \QUOTE] (without space)
Seefo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2013, 10:53 AM   #34
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Greenville SC
Posts: 87
Total Cats: 0
Default

Thanks!
Team DNR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2013, 12:03 PM   #35
Elite Member
iTrader: (4)
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 3,052
Total Cats: 7
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
It sounds like you buy some seats and are given others for free. Mostly not racing your car so the $30-100k it takes to build and show up at the track isn't always prime consideration.
I've never paid for any of the seats I've had, at least not with money. I suppose I have paid with the thousands of hours of volunteer time after hours building, prepping, developing, repairing, and maintaining the teams race cars. But, no, I've never raced (wheel to wheel at least) a car I personally owned.

This is an old article but it describes one of the teams I drive for and how it works ---> The Breakfast Club It Ainít - Column - Car Reviews - Car and Driver

I wish I had the money to pay for seats but unfornately, despite all of the amazing benefits I have at my job, a large salary is not one of them. Nor even an average one...

I don't plan on staying in the lap of luxury forever, and one day I'll likely be building my own race car, and STL is one of the classes I would strongly consider. Hence, the bench racing going on now, in December, as it snows...



Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio700
I don't like it either but I have even less interest in driving a car I don't enjoy driving (that also costs a bunch to build) in a huge field of competitive drivers.
What in the STL rule-set turns you off the most? You make it sound like an STL miata would be atrocious to drive, painful even. My interpretation is that an STL miata would be very, very similar to one of your PT builds. The only big differences would be the 7" wide wheels, and the extra weight.

Obviously the engine rules are quite different, but at least in STL you wouldn't be trying to tune out 30 or 40whp. Like you mentioned above, how you make power in an STL motor will be quite different than how you've generally done it in PT, ie lots of cam and decent compression (as opposed to stock cams, CNC head, O/S valves, etc. etc.). So the engine rules pose a different engineering challenge than PT engine rules, but I don't think an STL engine would take away from the "fun-to-drive" factor.

Would 7" wide wheels and a couple hundred pounds of weight change one of your amazing PT cars into a undriveable turd? I'm not trying to be cheeky, honest question.

I was worried about the 7" wheels on the Civics, as well as the brakes. The 290mm max brake rule means we have to run smaller than stock brakes on our cars. We're not even maxed out on the brakes, we're running 282mm rotors with a two piston Honda caliper. If we had money to spend we'd have some 4-pot racing caliper on a custom 290mm two-piece rotor. Suprisingly the brakes worked fine, and the car handled pretty well with 7" wide wheels. Honestly, the STL Civic was more fun to drive than our Grand AM cars, and it ran basically the same lap times (only because of tires, BFG R1-S vs. Conti spec tire is probably 3s...).

Talking with Drago, I didn't get the impression that his car is "un-fun" to drive, but he did say that he ran the tires off his car. I don't know if that was his driving / poor set-up, or if it's something that can happen on a 2500lb+ miata.

Sorry, lots of blabbing...

P.S. Are you going to Thunderhill? I saw that only one 949 car was entered in E3, are you driving? Unfortunately, I will not be attending this year. I figured I'd enjoy a snowy weeking in Ohio more....
Efini~FC3S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2013, 02:11 PM   #36
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (3)
 
emilio700's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,323
Total Cats: 1,344
Default

I simply said that I don't like driving certain types of cars that others (like yourself) find enjoyable. You should let it go. You're trying to understand or rationalize my feelings with what you feel. You can't. I simply do not enjoy driving some cars. That's it.

So you're being given some seats for sweat equity earned, no significant cash outlay. That was my point. Every cent spent to get the cars I drive to the start line comes out of the marketing budget of my tiny company (my pocket). Thus, I weigh the potential branding affect and fun factor against dollars spent. I'd run Spec Miata before and STL build I think. But nothing is set in stone. The engineering challenge of working within the archaic SCCA Super Touring rule set has some appeal to this car geek. If an opportunity presents itself, I may eat my words. I can understand your enthusiasm for the class given that your personal cash outlay could be far less than mine and the cars sounds like fun to you.

FWIW, I have driven at least one fairly well set up 2600# Miata with some power. I didn't enjoy it

My team is in the black #05 Miata in E3 at this years T25. I'm sitting this one out. Instead providing logistical support, equipment, tuning, conferring on strategy, etc. Wish I could be there.
emilio700 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2013, 02:14 PM   #37
Junior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: snohomish, WA
Posts: 50
Total Cats: 4
Default

[QUOTE=Team DNR;1080109]
Quote:
Originally Posted by hingstonwm View Post

As far as hp, 180 whp seems to be good for a 1.8 ep car, 150 is big for a limited prep f car. My car dynoed at 154 and 112#, with intergal 4 cams, 10:1 Pistons and the allowed porting and crank work. Tuned on 100 octane race gas./QUOTE]

What's the word on Itegral Cams? I got my Stage 4 back in 2005, but then I was told they closed shop. Then reopened in new state. Is the product still the same? My Stage 4 were hyraulic, as solids were not legal then. Are your cams set up for the solid lifters?

I am building a new engine for my FP, but will use solids this time. Don't know which cams to use at this point.

??My quotes don't come out in the nice box everyone else gets? My computer or what?
Megacycle allegedly has been making integral cams, but I have not worked with them. It may be worth a call to jesse prather if your looking for cams, he can point you in the right direction.

I did a lot of work / tuning with the integral fp4/5 setup. You really need to sit down on with a set of dial indicators and a dyno to make them work - cam timing is super critical to hit the sweet spot.
mrjones2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2013, 02:00 PM   #38
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Greenville SC
Posts: 87
Total Cats: 0
Default

[QUOTE=mrjones2;1080258]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Team DNR View Post

Megacycle allegedly has been making integral cams, but I have not worked with them. It may be worth a call to jesse prather if your looking for cams, he can point you in the right direction.

I did a lot of work / tuning with the integral fp4/5 setup. You really need to sit down on with a set of dial indicators and a dyno to make them work - cam timing is super critical to hit the sweet spot.
Gotcha on the setup - like I said, we only used the cams for one race. I built the engine and dialed in the cams per instruction. Had a low redline for practice and qualifying to break in the motor as this was an absolute last second deal. Set it at 8K for the race. SOB took off like a Saturn V. This was at our SEDiv SIC in 2005. Actually a hoot to go from 7th on the grid to a win. Back in 05 the Integral Stage 4 were a secret weapon, I had like the third set ever made. Today, they are old hat.

Surprised to hear that Prather used hydraulic cams for Bill's FP. Maybe it is about the zero lash on a hydraulic vs the 0.10 or so lash on the solids making a difference?

Heck, it doesn't matter at all as long I can't get my dang MS3 to fire the car up.
Team DNR is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[CT] 1999 Mazda Miata 10th Anniversary Edition - $5800 Jike Spingleton Cars for sale/trade 3 09-20-2016 05:33 PM
FS/FT: 03.5 Mazdaspeed Protege leatherface24 Cars for sale/trade 15 10-16-2015 12:35 PM
Did I fry my daughterboard? wred MEGAsquirt 20 10-16-2015 02:26 AM
starting issue Johnny Tater Engine Performance 3 09-23-2015 07:10 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:09 PM.