Team 949 Racing @ NASA Nationals Sept 5-8, 2013 - Page 4 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 09-11-2013, 09:01 PM   #61
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I swore I'd never post in another car forum, but it pains me to see such a good "learning opportunity" go wasted...

There's so much that could have been done differently here by both drivers to avoid this contact.

If I'm the Mini driver (no relation to the actress):
I have a huge run on Emilio so I'd fake to the inside to bait him into defending, which it seemed his intention to do. Once he starts that move to the inside, I'm free to move all the way to the right of the track to be back on the optimal racing line. Emilio CANNOT legally move back to the right, so he's stuck on a horrifically sub-optimal line into T1. My exit speed from T1 would be at least 5 mph higher than his. By T3, I'd have 5 car lengths on him.

If I'm Emilio:
I'd leave him just over a car width to the left and bait him into taking that inside line. Most overtaking drivers will ALWAYS go to the inside by instinct, even if they have enough of a run to be fully clear of the car they're overtaking by the end of the straight which means going to the outside actually sets them up better for the next turn. If I can bait him into going left, then I maintain my line holding him along the left side of the track (STILL GIVING HIM PLENTY OF ROOM TO STAY ON THE TRACK) which is a horribly sub-optimal line into T1. If he clears my front bumper (completing the pass), then he can move over onto the racing line. If not, and there's still overlap as we approach T1, I can then suddenly move way over to the right to set up on the proper racing line for T1 while the mini driver has no idea what just happened to him, and he's going to have to slow almost to a stop to make T1 on that shitty line I just put him on.

What Emilio did is technically by NASA rules defending, not blocking. I don't condone it (perhaps on the last lap of a race or the first lap of a race, it's acceptable) and I am actually working to get the rule changed in NASA to include a provision that states any movement by the lead driver IN REACTION to the overtaking driver to try to prevent a pass is considered blocking. But, by the rules as they exist today, I wouldn't consider that move blocking.

HOWEVER, I do believe that the general provisions of racing room should be applied here, and purposefully creating a closing gap to the edge of the track when a driver behind you has a VERY CLEAR RUN ON YOU is not acceptable behavior, and everyone should fully expect big accidents to happen when drivers create those situations.

That's just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.
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Old 09-11-2013, 09:30 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deano View Post

What Emilio did is technically by NASA rules defending, not blocking. I don't condone it (perhaps on the last lap of a race or the first lap of a race, it's acceptable) and I am actually working to get the rule changed in NASA to include a provision that states any movement by the lead driver IN REACTION to the overtaking driver to try to prevent a pass is considered blocking. But, by the rules as they exist today, I wouldn't consider that move blocking.
How about getting the 3/4 car width rule changed at the same time? That one still doesn't make any sense to me... You can't fit a full car into a space that's 3/4 car wide. It basically says you can run the other guy off the track.
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Old 09-11-2013, 09:51 PM   #63
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How about getting the 3/4 car width rule changed at the same time? That one still doesn't make any sense to me... You can't fit a full car into a space that's 3/4 car wide. It basically says you can run the other guy off the track.
This is what I told Jerry in the executive appeal. I don't like the 3/4 width rule. I've been run off the track so many times when I had a front wheel past the door and had the race director tell me it was legal after seeing video. Drivers abusing the rule and going beyond what is stipulated. I told the RD at Miller that I decided to do what everyone else was doing but do it legally, only backing off when they overlapped my rear bumper and one car width and not an instant before. I told him the current rule allows guys to get away with "dangerous moves". He misconstrued that as me saying I decided to "drive dangerously" and again misquoted me during the executive appeal.

I basically agree with you and Dean. It shouldn't be legal, but it is. I'd like to have NASA change to 1 car width at any point on track.

I'll admit my move was borderline aggressive, but it was also very precisely executed with full awareness of the CCR and legal if you go frame by frame. I measured the mini's reaction at about 100ms and mine at a similar 100ms. We both turn right at about the same instant just before impact. My steering angle input is about half of his, assuming similar steering rack ratios.

I have not won the races I have without running everything to the edge of legality. Cars are legal, I do my best to drive legal. Just as the mini guy legally crowded me in other spots of the track, I crowded him. It's unfortunate for me that the tiny bit of low-res video makes it hard to see for the short-of-attention span. More difficult if, like a few posters in this thread, you already have a predisposition to hate on anything I say or do irregardless of merit. But it is there if you look with an open mind.
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Old 09-11-2013, 10:55 PM   #64
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I like you (what little i know about you) and root for you to win. I saw you veer left and squeeze the mini out. I didn't know you could do that or that it is legal. If it is, and that is what I'm hearing, then you got shafted. I just thought you had to leave a car width once he has any part alongside. Not ever being a racer with NASA, I expected different rules.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:45 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
The difference is that the defending driver in this video initiated his block after there was overlap. I made my block while the mini was about two lengths back then held a dead straight line until just before impact. I turn way before impact while a little over a car width a car width from the track edge. This driver is actually steering towards the passing driver while there is less than one car width remaining.
Agreed, I didnt mean to imply these incidents where parallel. Just sharing
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Old 09-12-2013, 02:21 AM   #66
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I feel that by the rules Emilio's move was perfectly legal. His continuous trajectory towards the edge of the track was clearly stated, the Mini driver had plenty of time to decide to go the the outside, and it would have been a more advantageous move on his part anyway. Regardless, the Mini driver hadn't established his position next to Emilio in order to earn the right to any racing room next to him. It was generous of Emilio to 'juke' the wheel a bit to the right just before contact in an attempt to make a little bit more room...

Personally, I don't mind the 3/4 car width rule. I think all drivers should always 'intend' to leave 1 full car width of racing room. However, we all goof a little bit once in a while, and when we intend to leave 1 full car width, might accidentally only leave 3/4 car width. Thus, 3/4 car width should, in my opinion, be the minimum width allowed for legality without having to face a disqualification.
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Old 09-12-2013, 03:19 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
I saw you veer left and squeeze the mini out.
This appears to be the case on the first viewing of the mini's video in real time. I saw that video first and had the same reaction. When you watch Emilio's video, you see him take a straight and gradual line drifting to the left of the track. Sharp steering inputs scrub momentum. There was no abrupt movement to push the mini off the track. The cones on the access road actually do the squeezing to the left lane.

As Dean said, the Mini should have cut to the outside where his momentum coupled with the better line for T1 would have given him the pass pretty easily. For whatever reason, he was tunnel visioned to the inside of the track through a window that was closing by the millisecond. Sure, Emilio could have avoided contact by conceding the pass but this was a national qualifying race, not an HPDE. The mini was in his class and they both wanted that grid position. **** happens.
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Old 09-12-2013, 09:40 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by speedengineer View Post
I feel that by the rules Emilio's move was perfectly legal. His continuous trajectory towards the edge of the track was clearly stated, the Mini driver had plenty of time to decide to go the the outside, and it would have been a more advantageous move on his part anyway. Regardless, the Mini driver hadn't established his position next to Emilio in order to earn the right to any racing room next to him. It was generous of Emilio to 'juke' the wheel a bit to the right just before contact in an attempt to make a little bit more room...

Personally, I don't mind the 3/4 car width rule. I think all drivers should always 'intend' to leave 1 full car width of racing room. However, we all goof a little bit once in a while, and when we intend to leave 1 full car width, might accidentally only leave 3/4 car width. Thus, 3/4 car width should, in my opinion, be the minimum width allowed for legality without having to face a disqualification.
+1
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Old 09-12-2013, 02:27 PM   #69
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Last edited by bellwilliam; 09-12-2013 at 03:45 PM.
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Old 09-12-2013, 02:38 PM   #70
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Some very precise, calm and heads up driving there my friend.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:33 AM   #71
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It's a good time when the PTE cars are being held up by the battle for 2nd place PTD.
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Old 09-13-2013, 04:17 PM   #72
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Wow, your tracks are a lot faster than ours!
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Old 09-13-2013, 04:49 PM   #73
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The rules will likely change as a result of Sonny's annihilating the D lap records and our E car beating all the other D's...
In for D and E cars' in-car video.
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Old 09-13-2013, 05:14 PM   #74
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Nemo should not of ran NB1 intake manifold. I mistakenly thought I can update / backdate in the same NB family engine. Greg corrected me on that at the National.

I would of ran NB2 intake manifold (would of made same power anyway), that's an extra point left for a mod (I believe worth 1/4-1/2 second) that I am not ready to share yet.

Nemo's engine isn't 100% what Emilio described, because of different engine builder. but it is the same idea, making the same power.

another thing is both Andrew and I never ran the fresh tires, nor in cooler weather (cool on Saturday and Sunday - Andrew did on Sunday but with sick motor). on Friday qual race, I also ran with a sick motor (valve issue). there was easily 1 second to 1.5 second left.
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Old 09-13-2013, 06:20 PM   #75
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To get the cars to balance with stock 22/11mm say bars we ran 1000# front springs and either 400 or 450# rears, same basic alignment as our website page. Trickier to drive at the limit and a bit harder on the tires but fast.
Dang! 1000f/450r? How does it not understeer? I ran 850f/600r and it felt about right
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Old 09-13-2013, 07:18 PM   #76
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Dang! 1000f/450r? How does it not understeer? I ran 850f/600r and it felt about right
Details are all in that long post. That is how it did not understeer.

I am going to guess that your 850/600 was

-different dampers
-different sway bars
-different alignment
-different tires
-different wheels
-different weight distribution
-different total weight

?
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Old 09-13-2013, 10:25 PM   #77
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Neat stuff Emilio. I've always liked the idea of points classing and being able to hit the class max pwr/wt without the dyno reclass penalty, but I thought it would take more points than that. Plus, the reason I chose TT/PT over SM (and the reason I originally stopped tracking my S2000) is that I didn't want to dump that kind of money into motors. Thankfully the prep level is still low enough over here to stay at the front with a junkyard block and dyno reclass.

Thanks for sharing.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:56 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
Details are all in that long post. That is how it did not understeer.

I am going to guess that your 850/600 was

-different dampers
-different sway bars
-different alignment
-different tires
-different wheels
-different weight distribution
-different total weight

?
E, I know we have talked at length about my TTC aspirations.......do you see anyway possible to make a 1.6 points competitive in any class above TTE?
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Old 09-14-2013, 12:15 AM   #79
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E, I know we have talked at length about my TTC aspirations.......do you see anyway possible to make a 1.6 points competitive in any class above TTE?
No
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Old 09-16-2013, 10:31 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
Details are all in that long post. That is how it did not understeer.

I am going to guess that your 850/600 was

-different dampers
-different sway bars
-different alignment
-different tires
-different wheels
-different weight distribution
-different total weight

?
I don't know all the specifics on your cars, but as far as I know:

-same dampers
-same sway bars (stock)
-same tires
-similar alignment
-different wheels...but small beans

Definitely the weight distribution plays a significant role as I was much at a much lower class weight. Didn't think it would results in such drastically different conclusions in spring rates though! I'm also wondering if your custom diff tuning has an effect?? Perhaps it just comes down to driving style and driver preference. I do prefer a fairly loose car -> understeer is the devil!
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