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Old 10-02-2010, 02:27 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by rharris19 View Post
I run 225 Nt-01 currently and have run 225 RA-1s in the past. The NT-01s wear a little faster but have a little more grip.
Difference for me is that you have to spend money shaving the RA-1s, whereas the NT-01s are super fast even at full tread.
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Old 10-02-2010, 09:36 AM   #22
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True. FWIW full tread RA-1s make great track rain tires.
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Old 10-02-2010, 04:38 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Difference for me is that you have to spend money shaving the RA-1s, whereas the NT-01s are super fast even at full tread.

meh, I have yet to pay for shaving RA1s.... My old Rain tires end up great track race tires once worn out
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Old 10-03-2010, 08:38 PM   #24
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My primary are the NT01s and I love 'em. Backup rains are some full tread RA1s, I also have a set of continental take-offs that I have yet to try.

The only down-fall (if you want to call it that) of the NT01s is they're noisy. I had installed the OSGiken LSD and put on the NT01s at the same time - I thought I screwed something up in the OSG install they were so noisy.
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Old 10-03-2010, 08:53 PM   #25
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True. FWIW full tread RA-1s make great track rain tires.
I've done one session in the rain, just to say I've done it. 5th gear wheelspin at 80mph gets old really fast.

My shifter kart, OTOH, is a retarded blast in the rain.
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Old 10-04-2010, 02:33 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
first thing you want to ask is what size you want to run. if it is 225/45-15, you are limited to just few tires, A6/R6/NT01/RS3.

I personally like NT01 by far. RS3 would be my street tire choice.
I'm running 225/45/15 Kook Z214's (C71), ran the NT01 last year. Similar in performance to the NT01 but a few bucks more (~$20 each IIRC). Kooks might have a slightly stiffer sidewall and might give a tad less feedback - but that could be my imagination. My lap times are stagnant either way - Probably go back to the Nitto's next year just for the cost.
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Old 10-04-2010, 02:41 PM   #27
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Toyo R888 and Toyo RA1 is also available in 225 45 15 BTW
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Old 10-05-2010, 12:29 PM   #28
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Spent a half day at the track with my new Toyo R1Rs, in 225/45/15. I have to say they impressed me. My turbo let go in the third session so I cant tell you how well they last, but I was really impressed with how much grip I got with a DOT. It was a cool day and they seemed to lose a little after they got hot, but not much.
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Old 10-05-2010, 01:20 PM   #29
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R888 are crap, RA1 for life, NT01 slightly less life but slightly quicker times, RS3 for street/track duty. Hoosiers in 275 flavor or A6's for balla's.
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Old 10-05-2010, 02:00 PM   #30
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I'm running 225/45/15 Kook Z214's (C71), ran the NT01 last year. Similar in performance to the NT01 but a few bucks more (~$20 each IIRC).
Either you're getting ripped off for NT-01s or you've found a SMOKING deal on C71s. My local tire store will pricematch online prices and I pay $560 a set for NT-01s ($140/tire) and $800 a set for C71s ($200/tire), including mounting and balancing.
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Old 10-05-2010, 02:45 PM   #31
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Either you're getting ripped off for NT-01s or you've found a SMOKING deal on C71s. My local tire store will pricematch online prices and I pay $560 a set for NT-01s ($140/tire) and $800 a set for C71s ($200/tire), including mounting and balancing.
Sorry to confuse, it's neither. - the Hankooks were more expensive than the Nittos by more like $40 a tire ($140 vs 180 or so). My point was that I didn't see any measurable improvement over the NT-01.

EDIT - Another correction - The Kooks are C51 (medium), not C71 (soft).

Last edited by TimM; 10-14-2010 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 10-05-2010, 03:06 PM   #32
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I absolutely hated the BFG GForce R1s for track use

too much stick
I have never heard someone complain about too much grip...

I think your experience with the BFG R1 is pretty normal for a full race tire. The NT01s and RA1s are probably more forgiving at the limit than the R1 or a Hoosier.

Personally I have a lot of experience with R1s and I can't complain about their behavior at the limit, seems normal to me. I think they are quite predictable at the limit and easy to control, however, I've never driven a Spec Miata nor have I ever run the R1s on a Miata, ymmv.

I've had RS2s and NT01s on my turbo miata and have run BFG R1s on various other FWD race cars (Integra, TL-S, V6 Accord, RSX-S, etc.) and I think the R1 is a great tire. I'm surprised more of the fast guys here don't try them on their turbo miatas, they are quite a bit faster than NT01s and if heat cycled properly they have very good life. Unfortunately BFG hasn't made a 225/45 size yet, that might be why people here haven't tried them. Personally I think my turbo miata I would have been faster on the 205/50 R1s than the 225/45 NT01s but never was able to do a comparison.

I also have a little experience on Hankook C50s, but only for a couple of sessions and they were pretty well worn out when I ran them. They were horrible when I drove on them so I assume they were well past their useful life.

FYI our ITA Integra race car was faster on 205 BFG R1s than on 225 Hankook C70s or C50s. (both on a 7" wheel)
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Old 10-05-2010, 04:12 PM   #33
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Sorry to confuse, it's neither. - the Hankooks were more expensive than the Nittos by more like $40 a tire ($140 vs 180 or so). My point was that I didn't see any measurable improvement over the NT-01.
Fair enough. I saw a pretty big benefit - at Laguna, 1:37.9 on NT-01s, and that dropped to a 1:36.2 on C71s. My best at Buttonwillow was a 1:58.2 on NT-01s, and what felt like a fairly junk lap on C71s was a 1:55.8. The Kooks to me are not as forgiving to small slides or mistakes as an NT-01, but at the same time the NT-01 does not like to be overdriven - they overheat with excessive slip angle and you have to take a cooldown lap before they will come back at full force.
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Old 10-05-2010, 04:44 PM   #34
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Fair enough. I saw a pretty big benefit - at Laguna, 1:37.9 on NT-01s, and that dropped to a 1:36.2 on C71s. My best at Buttonwillow was a 1:58.2 on NT-01s, and what felt like a fairly junk lap on C71s was a 1:55.8. The Kooks to me are not as forgiving to small slides or mistakes as an NT-01, but at the same time the NT-01 does not like to be overdriven - they overheat with excessive slip angle and you have to take a cooldown lap before they will come back at full force.
That is quite a difference, wish I saw it too. I agree with your assessment of both brands. My local track is NHMS and my best TT lap on the NT-01's was 1:21 flat (1:22's consistent). Best on the Kook's is 1:22.xx this year, way out of trophy contention in a competitive class. I expected better from the Kooks but power and suspension changes keep me from drawing any hard conclusions beyond "try harder" and "get more data".
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Old 10-08-2010, 09:04 AM   #35
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WE had used BFG R1s on our FWD Infiniti G20 and they were fantastic on that car.

Tires do behave differently on different cars of course (especially fwd vs. rwd)

The simple fact is the turn in points were different with the R1 BFGs on the spec miata and they had tons of stick until they didn't (did not like how they were 'unpredictable' when they gave out -- much like the R888s IMHO that have this habit of just giving up with no warning or reason when too much heat in them.

I love hoosiers (never met anyone who doesn't) and have never experienced the 'give up' that BFG R1s or R888s have with them UNLESS at cordws (in which case it is understandable they are done).


I've been driving at tracks for over 15 years, tend to put in between 35 to 45 track days a season and experienced lots of cars with lots of different tires so I do have some experience behind my comments/observations.

The car type, driver, track surface, ambient and track temps of course all factor in as well of course!

Bottom line is I will never use BFG R1s on my spec miata is all but I also won't go out of my way to buy them for our g20 (not when there are plenty of other options out there).

Regarding Hankook C30 or C50 compound. Only used them on the g20... and in both cases, once over-heat cycled, they have little grip left long before reaching cords (much like pilot sport cup tires).

While very difficult to over-heatcycle an RA1, it can and has been done and I have experienced it a few times (didn't believe it at first but changing to other RA1s solved the lack of grip problem thanks to 2 of them being over-heatcycled before reaching cords!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S View Post
I have never heard someone complain about too much grip...

I think your experience with the BFG R1 is pretty normal for a full race tire. The NT01s and RA1s are probably more forgiving at the limit than the R1 or a Hoosier.

Personally I have a lot of experience with R1s and I can't complain about their behavior at the limit, seems normal to me. I think they are quite predictable at the limit and easy to control, however, I've never driven a Spec Miata nor have I ever run the R1s on a Miata, ymmv.

I've had RS2s and NT01s on my turbo miata and have run BFG R1s on various other FWD race cars (Integra, TL-S, V6 Accord, RSX-S, etc.) and I think the R1 is a great tire. I'm surprised more of the fast guys here don't try them on their turbo miatas, they are quite a bit faster than NT01s and if heat cycled properly they have very good life. Unfortunately BFG hasn't made a 225/45 size yet, that might be why people here haven't tried them. Personally I think my turbo miata I would have been faster on the 205/50 R1s than the 225/45 NT01s but never was able to do a comparison.

I also have a little experience on Hankook C50s, but only for a couple of sessions and they were pretty well worn out when I ran them. They were horrible when I drove on them so I assume they were well past their useful life.

FYI our ITA Integra race car was faster on 205 BFG R1s than on 225 Hankook C70s or C50s. (both on a 7" wheel)
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Old 10-08-2010, 12:27 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris101 View Post
WE had used BFG R1s on our FWD Infiniti G20 and they were fantastic on that car.

Tires do behave differently on different cars of course (especially fwd vs. rwd)

The simple fact is the turn in points were different with the R1 BFGs on the spec miata and they had tons of stick until they didn't (did not like how they were 'unpredictable' when they gave out -- much like the R888s IMHO that have this habit of just giving up with no warning or reason when too much heat in them.

I love hoosiers (never met anyone who doesn't) and have never experienced the 'give up' that BFG R1s or R888s have with them UNLESS at cordws (in which case it is understandable they are done).


I've been driving at tracks for over 15 years, tend to put in between 35 to 45 track days a season and experienced lots of cars with lots of different tires so I do have some experience behind my comments/observations.

The car type, driver, track surface, ambient and track temps of course all factor in as well of course!

Bottom line is I will never use BFG R1s on my spec miata is all but I also won't go out of my way to buy them for our g20 (not when there are plenty of other options out there).

Regarding Hankook C30 or C50 compound. Only used them on the g20... and in both cases, once over-heat cycled, they have little grip left long before reaching cords (much like pilot sport cup tires).

While very difficult to over-heatcycle an RA1, it can and has been done and I have experienced it a few times (didn't believe it at first but changing to other RA1s solved the lack of grip problem thanks to 2 of them being over-heatcycled before reaching cords!)
I don't have any experience on Hoosiers so I can't compare them to the R1. All I can say is we've won the Runoffs on the R1 with both FWD and RWD vehicles so we are going to continue to run them. I recommend them because I've never had anything but good experiences with them. I'm not versed in SM so I can't comment on how one would or should behave on R1s.
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Old 10-08-2010, 01:19 PM   #37
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All I have to say about "Best" DOT tires is that there is a reason the SCCA has banned Pilot Sport Cups from Autocross at the National Level. I don't see NT01s being banned anytime soon. They are a good tire though.
Was that only for the street tire classes requiring 140 or higher treadwear? There was a PSC (or was it PZeroC?) where only one size came in 140 and all others were 80-100…the 140 was molded to a deeper depth or something, the rubber was the same…but when shaved (legal in those classes)…voila an 80 in the >=140 class. Maybe that was it. So the SCCA banned all sizes of that tire for those racing classes.

For those wanting max perf street tires, the ADO8 Yoko is very nice. What I like about them is the really excellent steering feel and turn-in. Subjectively they are nice, and they perform well for that sort of tire, and can take heat too.
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Old 10-08-2010, 01:50 PM   #38
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Might have been the PZero's... that was many moons ago since 2007.
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Old 10-08-2010, 03:36 PM   #39
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Ive used RS-2, R888 and now the RS-3

The RS-2 had good grip and didn't overheat fast. The R888 had more grip than the RS-2, but overheated faster. The RS-3 grips better than the RS-2 and almost as much as the R888 and they don't heat up as fast as the R888. The RS-3 also lasts longer than the R888

Last edited by 99mx5; 10-08-2010 at 05:48 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old 10-08-2010, 03:49 PM   #40
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The Hankook C-71 is fast and great grip but has too soft a sidewall for my dual purpose car. They need a lot of camber to keep from rolling over. Also not a very communicative tire. When they let loose it's sudden. I like a tire that talks (squeals) approaching limits.

The Nitto and RA1 are easy tires to drive. They don't heat cycle out easily, give you good feedback and are affordable.

I really liked a set of old Avon Tech R's I had. Very stiff sidewall so I didn't have to run a ton of camber on my daily driver I also track. Lots of audible communication and they held up really well right down to the cords. Can't say what the current Avons are like, other than expensive.

FYI, Tamparally has 205/50/15 Hankook DOT z214's and F200 non DOT slicks in soft compounds, closeout for $79 and $95. Would be good autoX tires, doubt the soft compound would hold up well for heavy track duty.

Last edited by cueball1; 10-08-2010 at 04:19 PM.
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