turbo reliability on track - Page 8 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Race Prep Miata race-only chat.
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-15-2011, 11:54 AM   #141
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Anacortes, WA
Posts: 2,476
Total Cats: 114
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
I'll take some educated guesses at some of the mistakes illeniummx5 made. Mistakes myself and everyone else here has made at some point. Willing to bet his team made at least 75% of these throughout development and still had 25% when they finally threw in the towel

Stuff Miata track turbo guys do wrong
  • No hood vents
  • Hood vents in the wrong location, i.e behind #3 cylinder
  • No full coverage undertray
  • Radiator core not 100% sealed for air leakage around it
  • No reroute
  • #6 or #5 plugs
  • Stock coils
  • NA batch fire ignition
  • NA6 batch fuel
  • Pump gas of 92 or lower octane
  • Non-Inconel manifold studs
  • OTS BEGI or FM manifold w/o turbo support brace
  • OEM Garrett internal wastegate and >10psi instead of VTA
  • Too small VTA BOV
  • Intake pipes without beads
  • Intake pipes held on with ordinary worm drive hose clamps
  • Throttle plate not epoxied
  • Solid motor mounts broke other stuff on car
  • OEM diff mounts - broken exhaust
  • No V-Band in DP
  • OEM Rods
  • OEM pistons
  • OEM oil pump
  • No clutch bypass for starting leading to toasted thrust bearings
  • No oil cooler
  • No trans cooler
  • No diff cooler
  • 5 speed transmission (went through at least four I bet)
  • Rubber lines for turbo oil and/or coolant
  • Restrictive tube/Fin I/C from big name American company instead of superior Chinese Bar/Plate off ebay (who knew)
  • Piggy back ECU
  • >13psi with NA cam/crank angle sensor + ragged edge tune = det
  • No WB02
  • WB02 in wrong place
  • No EGT
  • Coolant temp sensor at front of head
  • Heater bypass w/o restrictor
  • OEM 16psi rad cap instead of 19psi Koyo/Stant
  • Too few/misaligned exhaust hangers = cracked DP
  • Bad welds, cracked DP or exhaust
  • 5th injector in manifold
  • RX7 460cc injectors
  • RC engineering injectors
  • No det cans used during dyno tuning
  • Boost turned up after dyno, then raced
  • Boost turned up way past highest efficiency island on compressor map
  • Zero safeties built in to ECU (overboost,EGT,WB02,coolant pressure etc)
  • Insufficient heat shielding for heater hoses, master cylinder, trans tunnel
  • More than one change in intake pipe cross section dimension between compressor-I/C or I/C- TB.
  • Under drive pulleys
  • Road tune only for WOT/peak boost only (no steady state part throttle dyno tune)
  • $25 junkyard turbos
  • Non-water cooled turbo
Non-engine stuff done wrong
  • Koni yellows with GC coilovers
  • Spec Miata suspension
  • OEM rubber suspension bushings
  • NA6 diff
  • Open diff
  • more rear camber than front
  • Anything less than 9" wheels
  • 205/50/15's
  • Zero front aero but tons of drag/lift inducing cooling holes in vain attempt to stop overheating
  • No wing
  • No hard top
  • Bolt in cage
  • NA8 brakes with Hawk Blues
  • OEM bone stock hubs
  • OEM end links
  • A/C components still in car
  • >2400lb comp weight
Here is the stuff I’m still doing wrong according to the list. But some of those things I think I might have been on the pioneering edge of developing and implimenting the answers.

Stuff Miata track turbo guys do wrong
  • Pump gas of 92 or lower octane
  • OEM Garrett internal wastegate and >10psi instead of VTA
  • Throttle plate not epoxied
  • No trans cooler
  • No diff cooler
  • >13psi with NA cam/crank angle sensor + ragged edge tune = det
  • No EGT
  • RC engineering injectors
  • No det cans used during dyno tuning
Non-engine stuff done wrong
  • Bolt in cage (Actually its a Hard dog roll bar with door bars)
  • >2400lb comp weight
[/QUOTE]
bbundy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 01:45 PM   #142
Junior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 387
Total Cats: 10
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by x8mrxjohn8x View Post
It's my first track day on Sunday. How do you guys tell the turbo stud are backing out, or do you just check after 1-2 laps?
first track day, I wouldn't worry about a thing. nothing on Emilio's list applies..
bellwilliam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 01:46 PM   #143
Junior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 387
Total Cats: 10
Default

Bob:

I would epoxy the throttle plate screw. I've seen 3+ engine went kaboom because of it.
bellwilliam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 02:36 PM   #144
Tour de Franzia
iTrader: (6)
 
hustler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Republic of Dallas
Posts: 29,114
Total Cats: 351
Default

I'm going home to epoxy my screwz.
hustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 03:52 PM   #145
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Anacortes, WA
Posts: 2,476
Total Cats: 114
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
Bob:

I would epoxy the throttle plate screw. I've seen 3+ engine went kaboom because of it.
From what I have seen it is an RPM related thing. Guys frequently over 7200 rpm are the ones braking throttles. one guy here making 170 hp out of a naturally aspirated 1.6l regularly spinning to 8000 rpm is constantly braking throttle plates. I've never broke one. My car is a mid-range torque monster and the torque falls off past 7000 rpm so I shift. He has also broken all sorts of weird stuff due to vibration including the oil pressure sender cracking and falling off the side of the block he is even running stock engine mounts.

Bob
bbundy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 04:03 PM   #146
Tour de Franzia
iTrader: (6)
 
hustler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Republic of Dallas
Posts: 29,114
Total Cats: 351
Default

I'd like to get my track car on a Hall crank sensor, but it's way above my head.
hustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 04:28 PM   #147
Junior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 373
Total Cats: 36
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbundy View Post
From what I have seen it is an RPM related thing. Guys frequently over 7200 rpm are the ones braking throttles. one guy here making 170 hp out of a naturally aspirated 1.6l regularly spinning to 8000 rpm is constantly braking throttle plates. I've never broke one. My car is a mid-range torque monster and the torque falls off past 7000 rpm so I shift. He has also broken all sorts of weird stuff due to vibration including the oil pressure sender cracking and falling off the side of the block he is even running stock engine mounts.

Bob
Happened to our 1.6 ghettocharged lemons car too. The screw head bounced around in cyl #1 for about 20 minutes until it finally shat out through the exhaust valve. Then we ran the engine for another half dozen races. It ran like nothing wrong ever happened.

Then, a couple weekends ago at Buttonwillow, it blew the hell up.

Mind you, the death blow wasn't due to cyl #1. No, it turned out that cyl #3 was pinging like crazy. So much that it eroded the top ringland down to the ring and eroded the head until the head gasket blew. This severe det was not once heard on the dyno (or while racing, which is no surprise - earplugs and helmet). BTW cyl #1 looked like the surface of the moon.

But even cyl #3 wasn't the final nail in the coffin. We kept running it after JB Welding the head & replacing the head gasket. Finally, after a few more hours of racing, cyl #2 punched its rod thru the block. Probably water in the coolant during the head gasket swap resulted in a spun a bearing. Haven't done a postmortem yet.

So, yeah, this just reinforces that these are thrashy, coarse, ping-prone, yet tough little engines.
JKav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 04:33 PM   #148
mkturbo.com
iTrader: (24)
 
shuiend's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 13,775
Total Cats: 1,106
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKav View Post
Happened to our 1.6 ghettocharged lemons car too. The screw head bounced around in cyl #1 for about 20 minutes until it finally shat out through the exhaust valve. Then we ran the engine for another half dozen races. It ran like nothing wrong ever happened.

Then, a couple weekends ago at Buttonwillow, it blew the hell up.

Mind you, the death blow wasn't due to cyl #1. No, it turned out that cyl #3 was pinging like crazy. So much that it eroded the top ringland down to the ring and eroded the head until the head gasket blew. This severe det was not once heard on the dyno (or while racing, which is no surprise - earplugs and helmet). BTW cyl #1 looked like the surface of the moon.

But even cyl #3 wasn't the final nail in the coffin. We kept running it after JB Welding the head & replacing the head gasket. Finally, after a few more hours of racing, cyl #2 punched its rod thru the block. Probably water in the coolant during the head gasket swap resulted in a spun a bearing. Haven't done a postmortem yet.

So, yeah, this just reinforces that these are thrashy, coarse, ping-prone, yet tough little engines.
So what you are saying is more JB Weld is the solution?
shuiend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 06:33 PM   #149
Elite Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 1,970
Total Cats: 49
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
I'd like to get my track car on a Hall crank sensor, but it's way above my head.
we are already use hall effect cam and crank sensors. At least in the NBs we do?
Seefo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 06:40 PM   #150
Senior Member
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 924
Total Cats: 16
Default

^ NA just has cam sensor.
Gryff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 10:27 PM   #151
Elite Member
iTrader: (12)
 
GeneSplicer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 2,006
Total Cats: 147
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryff View Post
^ NA just has cam sensor.
^ yeah - tell me 'bout it not for long though And I thank you for your pain in experiencing that - sure made mine easy to diagnose
GeneSplicer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 10:40 PM   #152
Hittin' Boost & Cones
iTrader: (2)
 
240_to_miata's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Cromwell, Connecticut
Posts: 2,572
Total Cats: 11
Default

That list was very very depressing.
240_to_miata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 11:04 PM   #153
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: south texas
Posts: 1,419
Total Cats: 9
Default

Don't let that list discourage you from the joys of turbo miata power on a track. There's more than 1 way to skin a cat, and many good times can be had without everything on that list.
spoolin2bars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 09:59 AM   #154
Elite Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 1,970
Total Cats: 49
Default

I think that list is more of compilation of things to consider. but it certainly seems like they apply at different stages, rather than on any FI'd miata. Not to mention the list is for a track car. I didn't even know anyone here ran trans/diff. coolers. I would like to read the write-up/discussion on that.
Seefo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 10:07 AM   #155
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,391
Total Cats: 58
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spoolin2bars View Post
Don't let that list discourage you from the joys of turbo miata power on a track. There's more than 1 way to skin a cat, and many good times can be had without everything on that list.
I would say that that list is a large (if not huge) collection of wisdom when you really start to push the envelope.
The important thing is to be aware of all the pitfalls and don't be tempted to push too far without monitoring how close to the edge you are. The edge is of course a moving target depending on what things on the list you haven't fixed yet.
A poor tune is of course a problem already at 200whp, but many of the other things are not so critical at that level.

You will get more driving done with a "balanced" car at a decent level than a half-built monster that still have a couple of years in the garage until it's finished.

A noob question that I think is on topic (and might elevate the reliability discussion a bit).
Are there any different concerns sprint vs endurance for a Turbo Miata than for a non-turbo one?
A high strung NA engine must also be decently built to withstand a 24h race but are there anything special to think of for Turbo (that you would not notice in a 30-60 min feature race)?
For argument sake e.g. 110bhp/liter NA vs 200bhp/liter Turbo.
NiklasFalk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 10:13 AM   #156
Tour de Franzia
iTrader: (6)
 
hustler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Republic of Dallas
Posts: 29,114
Total Cats: 351
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NiklasFalk View Post
A high strung NA engine must also be decently built to withstand a 24h race but are there anything special to think of for Turbo (that you would not notice in a 30-60 min feature race)?
For argument sake e.g. 110bhp/liter NA vs 200bhp/liter Turbo.
I don't race my car, but I recently chased a Panoz for about 45-minutes in 103*f heat. Water stayed under 200*f and oil below 235*f, I was really surprised. I also was abel to wring sweat out of my seat-liner, lol. By no means do I think my car would make it through a 6-hour enduro.

I'm somewhat inclined to think that if the engine will survive a 30-minute sprint on the track like we run in TT, the engine will make it through the race. I'd be more concerned with trans and rear end fatigue, brakes at the 12-hour mark, and aside from that I don't have the experience to know much of anything on the subject.
hustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 10:40 AM   #157
mkturbo.com
iTrader: (24)
 
shuiend's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 13,775
Total Cats: 1,106
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
I don't race my car, but I recently chased a Panoz for about 45-minutes in 103*f heat. Water stayed under 200*f and oil below 235*f, I was really surprised. I also was abel to wring sweat out of my seat-liner, lol. By no means do I think my car would make it through a 6-hour enduro.

I'm somewhat inclined to think that if the engine will survive a 30-minute sprint on the track like we run in TT, the engine will make it through the race. I'd be more concerned with trans and rear end fatigue, brakes at the 12-hour mark, and aside from that I don't have the experience to know much of anything on the subject.
They call him Hustler, the man who lives his life a half-hour at a time.
shuiend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 12:08 PM   #158
Senior Member
iTrader: (4)
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 1,479
Total Cats: 6
Default

Is it better to use a 99-00 headgasket + reroute when building a new VVT motor? Or do I want to keep the 01+ headgasket with no reroute?


Quote:
Originally Posted by curly View Post
Well, I'm fucked.
lol +1
dgmorr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 12:34 PM   #159
mkturbo.com
iTrader: (24)
 
shuiend's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 13,775
Total Cats: 1,106
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgmorr View Post
Is it better to use a 99-00 headgasket + reroute when building a new VVT motor? Or do I want to keep the 01+ headgasket with no reroute?
Go with the 99-00 head gasket and a re-route.
shuiend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 02:18 PM   #160
Junior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 387
Total Cats: 10
Default

The list is a collection of all known FI Miata issues. it doesn't mean you need all the mods listed. The list doesn't distinguish between:

150whp turbo or 400whp turbo
20 minutes HPDE or 3 hours race
driver who is 10 seconds above or a driver who is 10 seconds below SM record.

obviously if you are running 150whp turbo in 20 minutes HPDE going 10 seconds slower than SM record, I am sure you do not need ANY of the stuff on the list. On the other hand, if you are Savington in his 350whp, you will need everything on that list to survive a 3 hours enduro race.
bellwilliam is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Another Cast Manifold Corky Bell Prefabbed Turbo Kits 18 11-22-2016 10:01 PM
1994 Spec Miata Race Car SM/SM2/SSM For Sale Quinn Cars for sale/trade 6 10-23-2016 08:58 AM
01-05 Fab9 PNP COPs (used) FrankB Miata parts for sale/trade 6 09-30-2015 12:48 PM
WTB HPDE miata - Texas Voltwings Cars for sale/trade 0 09-27-2015 07:40 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:01 PM.