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Old 02-07-2016, 11:52 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
Because you can get lower without running into spring bind with shorter springs. Longer springs have a higher block height.
People have that issue, ever? If I set my coilovers to 1/4 height, my exhaust and transmission would be resting on the ground.
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Old 02-08-2016, 12:03 AM   #22
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A light car will not fully compress springs. When you have a gap at full droop adding a longer spring will only raise the car because a longer spring compresses the same amount. But at full droop you will still have the gap.
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Old 02-08-2016, 12:05 AM   #23
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A light car will not fully compress springs. When you have a gap at full droop adding a longer spring will only raise the car because a longer spring compresses the same amount. But at full droop you will still have the gap.
I understand how it works, but given an adjustable perch, helper springs are completely irrelevant because the height is going to be where you want it and the spring physically can not be deseated. Height is not the issue here, stop making it one.
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Old 02-08-2016, 12:12 AM   #24
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Helpers are needed to take up the spring at full droop. Correct? No matter how long a 700# spring is it will always be unseated at full droop when a Miata is set at a low (4-4.5") rode height.
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Old 02-08-2016, 12:16 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
Helpers are needed to take up the spring at full droop. Correct? No matter how long a 700# spring is it will always be unseated at full droop when a Miata is set at a low (4-4.5") rode height.
No, it will not be, lol. Just like in the exocet video posted a few posts up, while the stock spring would come unseated without the helper (even though the helper is only functioning as a SPACER to the perch), a 1.5" longer spring (the length of the crushed helper) would do the exact same thing, and eliminate the need to run the helper at all, because it will never come uncompressed in that setup on the front end, only the rear, which is why I have helpers in the back.

Last edited by Dietcoke; 02-08-2016 at 12:35 AM.
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Old 02-08-2016, 12:23 AM   #26
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For example, I replaced the left setup with the right spring, because just like in the video, the helper stays completely crushed and serves no purpose other then being a stupid uncentered offset spacer. The front end doesn't have the same travel the rearend does, even if the shocks are physically capable of it, the suspension and swaybar will not allow it.

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Who is not running helper spings-80-12347872_1573397942902061_3322097340504712174_n_2dab92d6e4d7f8128317c67daba9210fc3906c11.jpg  
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Old 02-08-2016, 01:16 AM   #27
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The helper is not just a spacer, it extends when the weight is removed keeping the main spring in contact then compresses and becomes a spacer when fully loaded. A longer spring has to be adjusted lower just like a helper, only it is not compressed all the way so when the suspension goes into full droop it well not extend enough to keep the slack out if that makes sense.
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Old 02-08-2016, 01:19 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by jmann View Post
The helper is not just a spacer, it extends when the weight is removed keeping the main spring in contact then compresses and becomes a spacer when fully loaded. A longer spring has to be adjusted lower just like a helper, only it is not compressed all the way so when the suspension goes into full droop it well not extend enough to keep the slack out if that makes sense.
How many times do I have to explain this before it's understood.

A helper spring that is under 100% compression at all times and can not be physically extended due to lack of suspension or shock travel vs installed height is a spacer. (and not a good one)

This happens under 2 scenarios.

1: The shock perch is set in such a way that full droop keeps the main spring somewhat compressed without a helper (no void under full droop)

2: The swaybar limits free suspension travel


Both apply to me, so helpers don't make sense. Suspension isn't one size fits all, kids.
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Old 02-08-2016, 01:21 AM   #29
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We are talking about a shock that can be extended longer then the main spring is, understood??????
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Old 02-08-2016, 01:27 AM   #30
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I don't think you get it.

A longer main spring will still be unseated at max droop travel, all you stand to gain is the ability to not lower the car past a certain point running a longer spring.

Most miata with lowered geometry have unused droop travel, the helper spring makes up that droop travel when there is no load, like cornering and hard bumps. The helper spring will keep the tire in contact with the road. Happens a lot on my 99ae billies and 7" springs, no helpers. If I'm off the ground, I can kick my tire down a good 2.5", front and rear. No bueno for torsen. I hear it clack around, see the witness marks from springs hitting sleeves. I haven't even been to a track, yet.

You could use the main spring for droop travel, but if you do that then you have to preload the spring, means you can't go low. The only way to make up the droop travel is a spring with softer rate than the main one, hence helpers.

So you don't ever see the helper move on your car or track, don't mean it doesn't happen to the rest of us.
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Old 02-08-2016, 01:31 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dietcoke View Post
How many times do I have to explain this before it's understood.

A helper spring that is under 100% compression at all times and can not be physically extended due to lack of suspension or shock travel vs installed height is a spacer. (and not a good one)

This happens under 2 scenarios.

1: The shock perch is set in such a way that full droop keeps the main spring somewhat compressed without a helper (no void under full droop)

2: The swaybar limits free suspension travel


Both apply to me, so helpers don't make sense. Suspension isn't one size fits all, kids.
More detailed info:
MX-5 Miata Forum - View Single Post - Xida CS vs. FCM NAs

With enough stroke, helpers become a benefit. Not enough stroke, helpers not needed. Not complicated.
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Old 02-08-2016, 01:45 AM   #32
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Whats the distance from the upper spring perch to the shock body on a front xida at full droop - as in the exocet video (with your xidas) the shocks have the travel, but guess what, the suspension as setup won't allow the helper to do anything but be a spacer, which just brings me back to the whole helpers arent always necessary thing, even with long stroke shocks.
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Old 02-08-2016, 02:13 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Dietcoke View Post
Whats the distance from the upper spring perch to the shock body on a front xida at full droop - as in the exocet video (with your xidas) the shocks have the travel, but guess what, the suspension as setup won't allow the helper to do anything but be a spacer, which just brings me back to the whole helpers arent always necessary thing, even with long stroke shocks.
If the helper is compressed the entire time then buy better tires and drive faster.
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Old 02-08-2016, 02:24 AM   #34
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If the helper is compressed the entire time then buy better tires and drive faster.
You're missing the point completely, you can jack the car off the ground and the helper will still be compressed. The exocets require the lower collars to be roughly 2 inches higher then miatas do to achieve a decent ride height. It's such an issue that they had to develop spacers to lower the upper shock mount down so we can run some of the better racing coilovers.

Like I said, I have helpers in the rear, they just arent needed in the front, as setup.
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Old 02-08-2016, 02:31 AM   #35
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I see the helpers working from about 4:00 on the video last page, exocet one.

What bushings are you running?
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Old 02-08-2016, 02:38 AM   #36
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Rod ends.
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Old 02-08-2016, 02:43 AM   #37
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Well, there you go. You probably limited droop travel somehow. Are the rod ends binding in the subframe or something?
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Old 02-08-2016, 02:46 AM   #38
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No, I don't have xidas, my shocks probably have 3/4-1 inch less travel and I use 7 inch main springs. I'd like to upgrade next winter offseason if funds permit, they're great shocks.
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Old 02-08-2016, 03:29 AM   #39
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So then why the **** are you commenting here if you don't have the problem being discussed.
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Old 02-08-2016, 03:51 AM   #40
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So then why the **** are you commenting here if you don't have the problem being discussed.
Because the **** the question being discussed is "Looking to get an idea who is not running helper springs on their track cars." ie: the first post.

And I'm not. Anything else you'd like to cry about?
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