EO2K contemplates the universe, his rotrex, and why they both fail - Page 10 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 01-12-2013, 03:31 AM   #181
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You guys are hilarious, thanks for the vote of confidence

I want to give the MS3 a shot.

The DIYPNP works great, but I want to play with some of the other features that are available through the MS3 platform. Several things happened recently:
  • I finally got tired of the rotrex's **** so I pulled it off the car, but it in a box, and put on a shelf.
  • With my car finally running consistently, I got a chance to really play with the DIYPNP and I really started to "get it." I'm actually beginning to understand all some of the little idiosyncrasies that come along with the MegaSquirt.
  • I got to spend some time with AbeFM, Savington, Emilio700 and the rest of the Team949Racing Crew at the Thunderhill T25 and briefly yet candidly discuss ECU options and capabilities with some people who really know what the **** they are talking about. I got to very briefly look over some shoulders and see some REAL data that came off Crusher, and then got to listen to how it was discussed, interpreted and acted upon. That was a real eye opener.
  • I've got a VVT head and I've decided to use it, so I need to control it.
  • I acquired a complete spare low mile BP4W motor. I no longer fear blowing **** up.
  • Work gave me a bonus this year for no apparent reason. My department is a cost center, not a profit center. I NEVER get bonuses.
  • MSLabs released their Basic MS3 and are starting to flesh out the MS3 Enhanced. I've spoken to Reverent and we are working something out.
  • I'm engaged. House and wedding and all that stuff is just around the corner. This will probably be the last big ticket item I'll have a chance to buy for a while. You will see some other gently used or brand new Miata hardware pop up in the classifieds here shortly once I decide exactly how I want to "finalize" the Miata.

Will the DIYPNP do all the basic functions that one needs to boost a car? Hell yes, does them with style. It's pretty much exactly what one would want for a street car, but one has to admit, its a pretty basic no frills unit. I want the bells and whistles and complications and sleepless nights that the MS3 can give me. I'm also a data junkie. The hard part is learning how to interpret said data.

I'm not giving up, I'm just changing directions slightly.
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Old 01-12-2013, 03:45 AM   #182
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Good for you. Join our MS3 krew
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Old 01-12-2013, 04:15 AM   #183
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Thas the plan!

Things just stopped being fun. I put the car back to bone stock for emissions testing and I realized how much fun it was when it ran reliably. I'd sell the rotrex but no one wants to make a serious offer. I also can't sell it blind and then live with myself without giving full disclosure. I will revisit it eventually, but right now I need some time alone to collect my thoughts and have some fun again. Believe it or not, Hustler's current predicament was actually a small amount of inspiration for this particular turn of events.
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Old 01-12-2013, 07:35 PM   #184
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Retracted ball-sac krew, sound off!

J/K. I agree that a reliable car is fun to drive. Did my emissions yesterday, went to Portland's Cars & Coffee this morning, then over to a friend's house to help him put his transmission back into his S4 wagon. Lift in 2car garage ftwwwwwww ...

Let's see some EFR action G!

Everyone at our local Cars & Coffee continues to be impressed by the simplicity of my rotrex setup. If/when you do decide to sell yours, I'll be sure to mention that to onlookers.
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:55 AM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobius View Post
Retracted ball-sac krew, sound off!

J/K. I agree that a reliable car is fun to drive. Did my emissions yesterday, went to Portland's Cars & Coffee this morning, then over to a friend's house to help him put his transmission back into his S4 wagon. Lift in 2car garage ftwwwwwww ...
Future father-in-law just built a shop with a 4 post post lift. Good thing he likes me

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Let's see some EFR action G!
**** **** god damn you! Don't say **** like this! Realistically I could probably get $1600-$1800 for the C30-74 head unit alone on the used market and an EFR 6258 is $1,461.54 from FullRace. I already have all the flanges and weld-els I would ever need to build a manifold for it too... or just wait and see if Trackspeed offers their kit sans-management. Another option would be to call Abe and have him build a manifold & dp. Last I checked his basic side mount for a T25 was around $700-$800 +/- depending on options. I have the capitol investment in hardware that if I were to liquidate, I could easily make it happen.

The $25,000 question becomes "how much can I stomach to loose should I change directions?" If it means reliability, you might be surprised at the answer.

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Everyone at our local Cars & Coffee continues to be impressed by the simplicity of my rotrex setup. If/when you do decide to sell yours, I'll be sure to mention that to onlookers.
Such an enabler... If I could get 75-80% back on what I paid, I would be very, very tempted to sell it, so do with that what you will.

Word on the street is that Kraftwerks/Skunk2 is going to submit the newer Rotrex kits for CARB approval. If this happens and they get approved, I could in theory update to the newer/revised hardware and be covered under the EO, should KW/S2 be generous enough to allow me to do so.

If not, fuckit, I've got nothing to loose
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Old 01-14-2013, 09:45 AM   #186
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It always makes me sad when I see a unit I built for sale, but after building like 300-400 or so units, someone will eventually sell one.

too bad there's like 4 in the classifieds right now, and one was my own

Wanting to upgrade to MS3x makes sense, the DIYPNP really is limited in its feature set, especially when you add in a/c functions; you're limited to like 2 programmable outputs, if you run a fan and VICs, you're out. So you cant even use the boost control feature and whatnot.

For him to control VVT would require the addition of the VVTuner, and I'd prefer the ECU itself to control the function.
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:54 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
It always makes me sad when I see a unit I built for sale, but after building like 300-400 or so units, someone will eventually sell one.

too bad there's like 4 in the classifieds right now, and one was my own

Wanting to upgrade to MS3x makes sense, the DIYPNP really is limited in its feature set, especially when you add in a/c functions; you're limited to like 2 programmable outputs, if you run a fan and VICs, you're out. So you cant even use the boost control feature and whatnot.

For him to control VVT would require the addition of the VVTuner, and I'd prefer the ECU itself to control the function.
That's pretty much exactly it. I started the thread about the VVTuner harness pin out as that was my initial plan, but decided the MS3 series would be a better fit. Now I've got a boomslang and a VVTuner harness to sell off as well For a turbo, boost control can easily be handled by a MBC, no? An EBC (via DIYPNP) is nice, but not strictly required as far as I was concerned. And definitely not required with the rotrex. What input is the A/C on with the DIYPNP anyway? I never actually got around to setting it up because I never use the A/C

Speaking of... I *think* you set it up with ALED for the VICS, but I never actually got a list of I/Os for the unit. I guess it does not really matter now that I'm selling it. I guess all you would really need to do is follow the pinout for the jumper wires, but I never bothered doing it.

It's a good unit, I've just outgrown it. I priced it to sell and included all the bells and whistles. Someone will love it and give it a good home.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:55 PM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EO2K View Post
For a turbo, boost control can easily be handled by a MBC, no? An EBC (via DIYPNP) is nice, but not strictly required as far as I was concerned.
Definitely not required, but the MBC will never be as good as EBC. Look at Soviet's (I think), and other people's results on EBC vs. MBC. The EBC will (should?) have better spool and response, and better area under the curve. Even on the EFR turbo. One of the points of having a unit like the MS is the ability to use great tools like OL/CL EBC.
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Old 01-14-2013, 09:00 PM   #189
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EBC is used by drivers whose ********* have dropped.
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Old 01-14-2013, 09:17 PM   #190
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Why is there suddenly so much interest in my *********?
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Old 01-14-2013, 09:20 PM   #191
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Because you own a rotrex and drive a gay car, everyone expects you not to have any!

Oh, wait ...
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:12 PM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdCarMX5 View Post
What MS are you running? Who tuned it? I just realized now that you are N/A we could exchange maps. How are your starts?
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Originally Posted by 3rdCarMX5 View Post
Well hopefully you can get it sorted. I am having problems with starts, takes longer than I like. Want to post your MSQ?
I'm so sorry I missed this like, twice. Here you go! (see attached)

Unit is a 99/00 DIYPNP running v3.2.1 stock injectors, stock coils, etc. USE AT OWN RISK!
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Old 10-03-2013, 01:43 PM   #193
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Ok, so the Racing Beat header is quite possibly the best upgrade you can make (short of forced induction) for a twin cat 99/00. There is an improvement in throttle response that is nothing short of amazing. Now I can actually tell there is an 8lb flywheel in my car. It's almost as if it flowed so poorly with the iron beast that it was choking revving up and down. I used to drop my foot to the floor before the apex in a corner and wait for the engine to try to build power while I glided around. If I do that now, the rear end comes whipping around on me. Time to recalibrate my foot or get my RS3s remounted. Or learn to drive

Oh, and power is way up too. I could honestly see this being a 10-15% (10-15hp) upgrade from the cast iron POS. I can't wait to get my MS3 so I can really mess things up
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Old 11-13-2013, 03:43 PM   #194
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Quoting myself from another thread so I don't have to go searching for this later

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Originally Posted by EO2K View Post
99/00 are notorious for eating coil packs. After the pack dies, it dumps unburned fuel into the exhaust and your cat goes Chernobyl. I'm guessing if you can SMELL unburned fuel in your exhaust, your cat is already done, or there is nothing left inside it.

I'm going to start by assuming you have replaced your plug wires sometime during your coil swap shenanigans.



I had the wiring all pulled apart on my 2000 this weekend so its fresh in my mind... the coils, temp sensor and injectors are all connected to the same harness. This harness runs from the rear up to the front of the engine where it attaches to the chassis harness in a 4 pin and a 8 pin connector that are anchored to a metal plate in front of the timing cover. Follow me thus far? Underneath the throttle body there is a steel bracket that attaches to the lower manifold. There are 4 bolts in that bracket: 2 go vertical up under the throttle body somewhere and 2 go horizontally into the lower manifold. On ONE of these two horizontal bolts there is (or should be) a ring terminal with 2 wires attached to it. These are grounds and they are VERY important. These pass DIRECTLY back to the coils. I know this because I had to check continuity on this today.

Corrosion is the bane of automotive electrical. It causes resistance and extra load on components and hastens their demise. This goes double for grounds. The bracket is steel and the bolts are steel, and the ring terminal is some sort of brass while the manifold is aluminum. This means dissimilar metals and a higher probability of corrosion. If you have any corrosion around that ring terminal, do yourself a favor and remove the bolt, polish the ring terminal, polish the surfaces it contacts, coat it all with dielectric grease and reassemble. If the ring terminal looks questionable, replace it with a fresh brass one, don't bother with shitty aluminum ones. I use my dremel with a stainless wheel to do this type of polishing.

Edit: Here, I made you a pretty picture.


Left side of image is rear of engine, right is front. This harness is wedged down between the intake manifold and the head.

Start by checking the ring terminal for corrosion, then open up the 4 pin and 8 pin connectors and check them as well. Check the CRIMP on that ring and make sure its not frayed where the wires pass into the crimp. The 4 and 8 pin connectors "should" look good because they "should" be sealed connectors, but a little bit of dielectric grease never hurt anything.

I can walk you through every connector between the ECU and the coil, but lets start with the easy stuff.
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Old 11-13-2013, 03:44 PM   #195
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...and another one

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Originally Posted by EO2K View Post
Yeah, I think the stock ecu puts out something like 5~7ms. I don't remember exactly but I know its something like more than double what the COPs want to see.

There are like 6 wires coming out of the coils

2x black - grounds
2x black/white - power
1x brown/yellow - trigger - Coil 1
1x brown - trigger - Coil 2

Grounds - super simple, I won't go into those again. Kinda obvious where they run.

Power - These are fed via the ENGINE fuse located "FUSE BLOCK - LEFT SIDE UNDER DASH" and the MAIN relay "MAIN FUSE BLOCK - RIGHT REAR OF ENGINE COMPARTMENT." This is also power for things like the heater elements in both front and rear O2 sensors.

Triggers - These wires carry the signal directly from the ECU to the coil.

I made another pretty picture

Note: Connectors 1-8 are things like TPS/IAC/Crank/Cam/AC/Etc that I don't feel like labeling right now

As you can see, the triggers feed through those front connectors and then run DIRECTLY to the ECU. I believe the power passes through the X-22 connector on its way to the ENGINE fuse and MAIN relay. The X-22 is (IIRC) buried somewhere way up under the dash. Of the 3 separate connectors that feed into the ECU, 2 are exclusive to this harness. Check to make sure they are secure and that the previous owner of your car didn't try to install a powercard or something equally stupid with Scotch Taps on any of the wires. I can't remember exactly where the ECU ground connects, but its up there by the throttle body. Be aware of it and if you can find it, it can't hurt to clean it up as well.

Go here: http://www.mellens.net/mazda/index.html
Download the PDFs for:
  • 1999-2000 Engine
  • 1999 Cruise Control
  • 1999 Wiring
  • 2000 Wiring

Also go here: Miata Information
Download the PDFs for:
  • 1999 How to Use Wiring Diagrams
  • 1999 System Wiring Diagrams
  • 2000 How to Use Wiring Diagrams
  • 2000 System Wiring Diagrams
  • Mazda MX-5 Miata 2000 Wiring Diagrams

Save all these bastards locally for future reference. There are some repeats, but they will be obvious once you start looking through them.

There is some more stuff here as well: Miata Forumz - Mazda Miata Chat Forums

Anyway, let me know if there is anything else I can do to help.
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Old 11-18-2013, 12:13 AM   #196
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I noticed one of my heater hoses was starting to bulge on Weds so I ordered a set of silicone Mishimoto heater hoses from Summit and put a hose clamp around the bulge. The new hoses got here on Friday so I installed them this weekend. Mishimoto claims they only fit 94-97, but they are quite mistaken. Perfect fit on my 00, even with the M-Tuned reroute. Now all the major coolant hoses under my hood are reinforced silicone. If I could find molded ones for the oil cooler and TB heater, I'd be in business.

I also ripped out my AC today, because I got tired of fretting over working around it. Soooo much more room in the nose now.
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Old 11-18-2013, 10:44 PM   #197
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Gosh. You were so productive. I still haven't swapped the fog lights back in for the brake ducts now that winter is upon us ... You should have installed one of Emilio's cnc heads whileyouwereinthere so I could be jelly
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Old 11-18-2013, 11:17 PM   #198
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No MS = no boost & no VVT so no reason to spend money on a head. At this point, I'm $300 worth of parts short of either reinstalling the Rotrex or the 2560R that's in my garage. I could literally go either way at this point but its hard to get motivated when I don't have an ECU.

I have been busy. There was a brake overhaul, hub repack, M-Tuned coolant reroute and complete exhaust replacement since the top of this page.



That's right, Wilwoods under those dirty, dirty stock 15's There is also set of TSE ducts hiding behind those rotors.

I've got some more rolling stock as well, I just haven't had time to get them mounted up.

I also have what I feel is excessive blowby at the moment but I haven't managed to nail down a time to do compression and leakdown tests. Mainly because I don't own a compression tester or a compressor, but that's another story. So its tough trying to decide what do with this engine.

I really do miss boost though :(
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Old 11-19-2013, 05:02 PM   #199
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Default Intercooler: third time is a charm

Background:

Ok, so here is what I've got: GodspeedProject Type M Intercooler

Don't laugh, I picked this up reeeeealy cheap some years ago here on the forum new never mounted. Core: 20" x 6" x 2.5" OAL: 28" Inlet / Outlet: 2.50" slightly offset top to bottom.

My car is an NB1 with the stupid AC dryer cylinder thing sticking out in front of the condenser taking up all the space in the universe, like so:

So I eliminated my AC system. BECAUSE CALIFORNIA. I'll probably regret this later.

What I've done thus far:

Using a simple twisted piece of 1/8" x 1" aluminum flat stock, I made a set of upper mounts that interface with the AC Condenser mounts. Final form will be one contiguous piece of stock.

That's a KOYO 37mm because I've been doing this since before TSE or FM started building radiators. Notice: "Super Intercooler"

The multiple colors of tape were there to hold cardboard over the core for protection during years worth of storage. Radiator is pushed back so I could get pics. Angle on IC matches angle on radiator once its in place.


The core is at such a height that it matches up with the top of the lower tank of the radiator, so I don't lose flow through the bottom 1.5" of the intercooler. The IC is in direct contact with the radiator. I plan on running a 1/4" x 1" piece of aluminum stock between the lower condenser mounts to support the bottom of the IC. The duct is fully in its stock location and there are no problems clearing the belly pan. So much win!


On a slightly reverse angle, you can see there is 1.5" gap between the bottom of the IC and the factory duct thing. I might look around and see if I can get a piece of 1.5" x 1.5" angle in there for additional rigidity and to block airflow.


Here you can see the giant gap under the IC. I will absolutely need to fabricate something to take up that space, maybe a piece of plastic or aluminum set at a 45 angle or something to ramp air up into the IC. You can also kinda sorta see the clearance on the right for the factory duct, framerail and radiator mount. I unnecessarily butchered the duct pretty badly, but this is my 3rd intercooler attempt so that's to be expected


Left side clearance. This intercooler will get sprayed matte black. By now you have noticed the nose if my car is blue. This is the price I pay for the massively superior NB2 headlights in my bumper.


Left side clearance with OEM ductwork in place. You can really see the extent of my butchery in this shot. The IC tube almost perfectly hits the seam between the nose duct and the belly pan. A simple half moon cutout in each should provide plenty of clearance.


Better shot holding my phone up inside the bumper cover.



Above 2 shots are with the radiator and intercooler removed from the car to get an idea of where this is positioned.

Questions and Concerns
AKA: Paranoia sets in

Radiator/Intercooler proximity:
The intercooler is in direct contact with the radiator and this brings up a couple of concerns:
  • Heat transfer: I feel this will heatsoak the intercooler like a biiiiiiiiitch and generally do the opposite of cooling things.
  • Wear: beercan thin radiator rubbing up against beercan thin intercooler in dirty road grit exposed environment + BP engine vibration sounds like all kinds of bad.
Possible solutions?
Get some 1/8"~1/4" thick closed cell adhesive backed foam or rubber strips (like some sort of weatherstrip like product) to get a physical separation between the IC and the rad. This would help seal things together, possibly provide some buffering to the expected vibration AND give me an air gap between the rad and IC to cut down direct contact heatsoak. This would also help space the in/out tubes away from the rad supports a little bit. They are pretty dang close as it is. I'm open to suggestions.

Power steering:
The metal cooling coil is in the way, of course, just like it always is. I've already butchered it, but relocating it up and out direct airflow means I'm afraid its not going to get any airflow.

Possible solutions?
Butcher it some more and relocate it so it gets some direct airflow, get the BEGI power steering cooler ribbed ***** thing and put it wherever, eliminate the PS. (Though I'd like to keep the PS for now because 15x9 & RS3)

Radiator Ducting:
I've done my best to retain the factory air deflector and undertray but lying on my back looking up into the void with the hood open there is A LOT of "holes" and seams that are going to leak all that glorious high pressure air into areas under the hood.

Possible solution?
Go crazy with some sort of fabric tape (something better than duct tape) or maybe sheet aluminum and rivets? What are the non RACECAR guys doing that is actually holding up without making the car look like a ******* mess of rivets, zip ties and duct tape?

I might make this its own thread in the DIY Turbo section, depending on how much feedback I get here.

I really REALLY like where the intercooler is sitting currently. Looking at it head on I can't tell there is an intercooler in there at all.
Attached Thumbnails
EO2K contemplates the universe, his rotrex, and why they both fail-typemic-375x251.jpg   EO2K contemplates the universe, his rotrex, and why they both fail-gogudo2.jpg   EO2K contemplates the universe, his rotrex, and why they both fail-1u1wxqs.jpg   EO2K contemplates the universe, his rotrex, and why they both fail-txx68tx.jpg   EO2K contemplates the universe, his rotrex, and why they both fail-jxwsmke.jpg  

EO2K contemplates the universe, his rotrex, and why they both fail-8qjmgt3.jpg   EO2K contemplates the universe, his rotrex, and why they both fail-vx7xgwq.jpg   EO2K contemplates the universe, his rotrex, and why they both fail-aendhbs.jpg   EO2K contemplates the universe, his rotrex, and why they both fail-h4uoxps.jpg   EO2K contemplates the universe, his rotrex, and why they both fail-kkeb3no.jpg  

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Old 11-19-2013, 05:58 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by EO2K View Post
Power steering:
eliminate the PS
This

You've already started down the path by removing AC, why not embrace it and remove the silly PS while you're at it...

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