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miata FFS coldside upgrade from PC pro to MS3 ecu

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miata FFS coldside upgrade from PC pro to MS3 ecu

 
Old 10-23-2012, 01:01 PM
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Default miata FFS coldside upgrade from PC pro to MS3 ecu

I have got 00NB miata with fast forward mp 62 coldside supercharger kit.
I damaged my engine - 4th piston failure from heat.

Then I decided to do some modifications (also from helpful on this and miata.net forums):

-installed oem pistons with 8.6 CR
-coolant re-route
-stock 240 cc exchange for 305 cc light green tops injectors from supra
-oil pressure sender upgrade for real VDO sender
-coolant gauge upgrade for linearised it
-AIT GM sensor installed to the intake manifold
-piggy back PC-PRO cards exchange for Reverant's MS3 ecu
-clutch
-aquamist WI kit, still didn't decide where to mount the water nozzle
(exchange it for 5th injector former location from FFS kit in the intake manifold, or to the throttle body, or both locations)


After installation of Reverant's MS ecu I went to dyno.
AFR from 12,0 to 11,2 across the board on 4th gear, I ran it only till 6500 rpm, cause still not WI kit installed (temperature in the intake manifold reach 78C 173 F after second run) and I was also afraid, if 305 cc injectors from supra
will be sufficient. Pressure boost didn't hit more than 0.52-0.55 bar. No
pinging from detonations.

Max power - 171,3 ps ,199Nm. (1st attachment)

So , I expected little bit more with standalone unit.


With old setup 3,5 years ago - with stock ecu , piggyback PC-PRO cards ,stock 240cc plus 5th fuel injector,my miata climbed to 204 hp and 207Nm. (2nd attachment)

Supercharger pulleys combo still the same : 105mm - 65mm

Do you think I will need bigger injectors and walbro fuel pump ,and maybe
higher pressure with 120mm - 65 mm pulleys combo for raise the power up? Or the problem will be only conservative ignition map of MS3 ecu?

Reverant wrote me that I need to take datalog from dyno run, didn't know it was necessary,also don't know how to do it. (I only check AIT, AFR , boost level and detonations while dyno)


Thanks, Dusan
Attached Thumbnails miata FFS coldside upgrade from PC pro to MS3 ecu-dsc07875.jpg   miata FFS coldside upgrade from PC pro to MS3 ecu-brzda.jpg  

Last edited by elektron; 10-25-2012 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by elektron View Post
intake manifold reach 78C 173 F after second run
Holy hot intake temps batman!!! No wonder you melted a piston.
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:15 PM
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But Reverant'ecu retarding ignition deppending on temperature in the intake manifold..

Set up before, with PC PRO cards used only stock IAT sensor before supercharger.

Anyway I need to accomplished WI ,any suggestion with nozzle location?

Last edited by elektron; 10-23-2012 at 01:38 PM.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:11 PM
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I would say that less hp and similar torque is a little odd. The relationship between the two is well understood, and should be consistent.

I would guess that timing is being pulled massively at high rpm as the blower heats up. The old setup wouldn't have done this, which lead to your piston melt, but also higher hp. The 5th injector is used as a weak WI system, so I wouldn't be surprised to see higher IAT without it.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by baron340 View Post
Holy hot intake temps batman!!! No wonder you melted a piston.
Pah, I hit 150degC on track and haven't melted a piston, good engine management is key rather than piggybacks.

Power is limited due to the intake temps granted, but that sort of air temp is nothing compared to when the fuel actually ignites in the combustion chamber....

OP, 70 odd deg C isn't bad really all things considered, when I used to have a hot side and an A/W IC I'd hit temps like that on track, again absolutely fine with good engine management, which you now have.
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Old 10-23-2012, 05:06 PM
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Yes, high IATs would definitely play a key role here. Your basemap is -2 degrees compared to the normal ones I send out. And then at 78*C, another 3 degrees is being pulled from the timing, for a total of 5 degrees, which would explain your power loss, but would also save your engine - hence no knock indication in the ECU.
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Originally Posted by ninerwfo View Post
The “into to megasquirt thread” mentions that the MS3 basic has 5 inputs with built in pull up resistors - and I was just wondering why it would have so many, while the MS3Pro PnP has just 2 (with no pull ups?)
MS Labs: Plug and Play Megasquirt ECUs for ANY 90-05 Miata (NA, NB1, NB2 w/VVT, MSM), including basemaps to get you started ASAP. PM me or email or details.
For support on MS Labs ECUs: Please email, be sure to include the unit's serial number and include a datalog and your current map.
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Old 10-24-2012, 06:52 AM
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So you can make a little bit less power but you get to keep all four pistons forever? I think that is a good trade.

You also would make more HP if you went all the way to redline during dyno run instead of stopping at 6500.

Yes, 305 injectors are way too small, especially with returnless fuel system on your '00. Get some ev14 injectors from Five-O (on Ebay) around 600 to 750cc in size and you will probably never need to change again. Your fuel pump is probably adequate if it is working properly.

Larger injectors and wi will get your power up some more, and it will be safer to your engine than the powercard was. I don't know on the best water nozzle location with the coldside kit.
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Old 10-24-2012, 07:03 AM
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The best location for WI on the FFS manifold is where the 5th, (or 5th & 6th if the revised version), injectors sit, that will get optimum water distribution between the cylinders.

If you have the later version manifold then keep the WI nozzle ratio the same as the fuel injectors were i.e. if they were 200 & 400cc injectors, make sure you keep one WI nozzle twice the flowrate as the other.
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Old 10-24-2012, 08:28 AM
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Get bigger injectors, get the ms fully tuned, wind it out all the way, and already you'll make more power. Or ditch the terrible FFS and make LOTS more power with a turbo.

Its pretty cut/dry - just finish setting up the car.
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Old 10-24-2012, 08:32 AM
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I'd trade off power for non-melted pistons.
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Old 10-25-2012, 03:26 AM
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Been there done that. ….melted 2 engines with FFS pc-pro kit…or was it 3 engines..

My list to success at the end was
- standalone (adaptronic) + big injectors
- 8.6:1 pistons (OEM)
- dual port water injection. 68cc throttle body & 204cc at the “5th injector hole”

After those, my car was reliable. IIRC I had -1deg ign.retard with every +5c after +60c

Later I added E85, advance ignition more and car was very fun to drive. it had ~ 230whp @ 14psi
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Old 10-25-2012, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by muoto View Post
Been there done that. ….melted 2 engines with FFS pc-pro kit…or was it 3 engines..
Tom at FFS is proof you don't need to be an engineer or even understand the nuances of physics to build a popular forced induction kit. But something being popular doesn't mean it is good. I feel bad for everyone who has hurt their engines and spent huge amounts of money due to the arrogance, greed, or willful ignorance of that man (I'm not sure which). There is no good excuse for any of the three at this point.
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Old 10-25-2012, 07:03 AM
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The mechanical aspects of his kits are fine, just as long as you're aware of the electrical implementations and utilise your own ECU with good tuning it's a nice piece of kit.

It is very power limited compared to an equivalent cost turbo setup, that's a given, but if this sort of setup is 'your thing' then there is nothing wrong with it.

The manifold and the tensioning system are both nicely designed and well made IMO.
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Old 10-25-2012, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by richyvrlimited View Post
the tensioning system are both nicely designed and well made IMO.
to be fair, it took years of perfecting yo-yo tricks to be able to acheive this feat. There's some sort of symbolic relationship here...

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Old 10-25-2012, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by richyvrlimited View Post
The mechanical aspects of his kits are fine, just as long as you're aware of the electrical implementations and utilise your own ECU with good tuning it's a nice piece of kit.

It is very power limited compared to an equivalent cost turbo setup, that's a given, but if this sort of setup is 'your thing' then there is nothing wrong with it.

The manifold and the tensioning system are both nicely designed and well made IMO.
You’re 100% right. It’s a good piece of kit. Well, now that I’m thinking about it ..for the money..not actually. My custom GT2560 turbo setup cost the same but makes **** loads more torque at 2000rpm and above

But still it was very fun to drive. Super fast throttle response etc...

As longs as you tune it right, keep an eye on intake temperatures, drive everywhere with det-cans on your ears (or use E85). You’re fine..
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Old 10-25-2012, 10:14 AM
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So, to paraphrase for the sake of clarity, "If you don't use his fuel management computer system, his 5th injector, you buy a different ECU, you buy other injectors, you buy and install a standalone water/meth injection system, you buy one with only the latest design pulley system, and you pay more money for equivalent horsepower then it is a 'good piece of kit'?" Please post a link of where to buy!
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Old 10-25-2012, 10:39 AM
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You can buy the kit sans electronics, so it's not like you're paying for stuff and not using it.

The rest, well you'd have to do the same for a turbo kit.

WI is not essential, but it is a great power adder.

As I say it's horses for courses, it's only the right answer to the right question.
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Old 01-08-2014, 12:33 PM
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Just installed aquamist HFS2 WI with 0.4mm nozzle exchange for 5th injector in the intake manifold. IAT falls to 50-60C.
Stock narrow band lambda exchange for EGT sensor. It hits 650-700 C after hard pulls to redline on 3rd or 4th gear.
Thanks all for support and advices from this forum.
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