When is Jackong Racing going to release thier CARB Rotrex kit? - Page 2 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Supercharger Discussion For all you misguided souls.
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-20-2015, 12:18 PM   #21
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
iTrader: (5)
 
aidandj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Beaverton, USA
Posts: 17,992
Total Cats: 1,457
Default

My low boost setting is less than 150ft/lbs of torque. EWG or a really low boost actuator does the same thing but lets you do more.
aidandj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 09:48 PM   #22
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 951
Total Cats: -252
Default

I own a water cooled twin turbo F150 that was designed for durability and torture tested and despite that there have been some turbo failures. I'm not convinced that non water cooled turbos in a race track environment are gonna last. What's the average lifespan in miles? 10K, 20K 30K? Anyone know?
wannafbody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 10:09 PM   #23
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
iTrader: (5)
 
aidandj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Beaverton, USA
Posts: 17,992
Total Cats: 1,457
Default

Why would you use non watercooled turbo? That would reduce the life.

Whats the lifespan of a rotrex?
aidandj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2015, 12:21 PM   #24
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 951
Total Cats: -252
Default

I wasn't aware that the turbos Miata guys are using are water cooled.
wannafbody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2015, 12:31 PM   #25
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
iTrader: (5)
 
aidandj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Beaverton, USA
Posts: 17,992
Total Cats: 1,457
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wannafbody View Post
I wasn't aware that the turbos Miata guys are using are water cooled.
You do realize there is more than 1 turbo in this world.
aidandj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2015, 12:40 PM   #26
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago (Over two miles from Wrigley Field. Fuck the Cubs. Fuck them in their smarmy goat-hole.)
Posts: 26,317
Total Cats: 1,914
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wannafbody View Post
I wasn't aware that the turbos Miata guys are using are water cooled.
I'd say that the split is probably somewhere around 60% WC / 40% non-WC, or something around that. Maybe slightly higher numbers for WC, as my own observations are likely skewed towards the cheapskate side of the community.


A lot of folks are still running old Greddy kits which came with non-WC Mitsu turbos, and a lot of folks buy cheap Chinese-made turbos, many (most?) of which seem to also be non-WC.

What I'll call the "mainstream" Miata turbo packages mostly use Garrett 25/28-series turbos, which are all water-cooled. And more recently, the "all of it" crowd have been discovering the BorgWarner EFR series, which are also water-cooled.


And there are yet other "minority" turbos out there as well from manufacturers like IHI, Holset, etc. Again, some WC, some not. There's even one (can't recall who makes it) which comes with a "permanently greased" center section. Weird.

You see about the same split phenomenon in the sleeve-bearing vs. ball-bearing decision.
Joe Perez is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2015, 01:49 PM   #27
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 951
Total Cats: -252
Default

thanks
wannafbody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2015, 01:58 PM   #28
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,174
Total Cats: 2,575
Default

You realize that water cooling really just does what it needs to do when you shut the car off hot right?
So this discussion is dumb, and you should learn how turbo's work.
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2015, 02:14 PM   #29
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago (Over two miles from Wrigley Field. Fuck the Cubs. Fuck them in their smarmy goat-hole.)
Posts: 26,317
Total Cats: 1,914
Default

I've been trying to find some good photos of a current-gen F1 turbocharger. Not coming up with much.


Regardless... My point wasn't "turbocharger is better than supercharger" per se. Positive-displacement superchargers still have a large and loyal following, and I can understand why; they have no boost threshold, no spoolup time, and can produce maximum PR right off idle. So for a drag-racer, or someone who spends their whole life below 4,000 RPM, I can totally see the appeal.

I just don't understand centrifugals. They produce the least-flat torque curve of anything, and don't offer any advantage which I can perceive over any alternative form of forced induction. Regardless of whether you're on the street or the tack, I just can't see why you'd want to only ever be able to produce peak torque at peak RPM. That concept does not positively correlate with the maximization of either fun or reliability.
Joe Perez is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2015, 02:57 PM   #30
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,174
Total Cats: 2,575
Default

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but what do you mean maximum PR right off idle?
My MP62, and most others I've seen only build 3-4 psi and then slowly taper up to 10 or so at redline in both the cold side and hot side variation. The 45s offer even less.

The really big ones produce way more from the get go, but this is not the case with the 46 or 62. Though even that much is still enough to make a healthy improvement in low end, of course.
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2015, 03:06 PM   #31
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 951
Total Cats: -252
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
You realize that water cooling really just does what it needs to do when you shut the car off hot right?
So this discussion is dumb, and you should learn how turbo's work.
I was under the impression that the water cooling prevents coking of oil in the turbo. Isn't that a good feature?
wannafbody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2015, 03:17 PM   #32
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
 
patsmx5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 8,796
Total Cats: 247
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but what do you mean maximum PR right off idle?
My MP62, and most others I've seen only build 3-4 psi and then slowly taper up to 10 or so at redline in both the cold side and hot side variation. The 45s offer even less.

The really big ones produce way more from the get go, but this is not the case with the 46 or 62. Though even that much is still enough to make a healthy improvement in low end, of course.
Yes, my Whipple will make more and more boost as you rev it. The SC lets air leak past the rotors/screws, so at low RPM since they spin slower, more air leaks back so less boost. With more RPM, the SC becomes more efficient. Also, at high RPMs, the motor's VE drops but the SC's doesn't drop hardly any, so again, boost builds because of this.

My setup makes 22 PSI at 8,000, 5 PSI at 2,000, 12 PSI at 3,000. Those are the only numbers I know off the top of my head.
patsmx5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2015, 03:34 PM   #33
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,174
Total Cats: 2,575
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wannafbody View Post
I was under the impression that the water cooling prevents coking of oil in the turbo. Isn't that a good feature?
Correct, but when the oil is moving, it's not gonna bake on, it spends almost no time inside the turbo before draining back.
It's when you shut the car off and the oil is no longer being pressurized through the chra that you need the water to cool the chra off as fast as possible to prevent what you're talking about.

Operation is kinda like of the oem "oil cooler" which is really a heater.
Quote:
Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
Yes, my Whipple will make more and more boost as you rev it. The SC lets air leak past the rotors/screws, so at low RPM since they spin slower, more air leaks back so less boost. With more RPM, the SC becomes more efficient. Also, at high RPMs, the motor's VE drops but the SC's doesn't drop hardly any, so again, boost builds because of this.

My setup makes 22 PSI at 8,000, 5 PSI at 2,000, 12 PSI at 3,000. Those are the only numbers I know off the top of my head.
Yep that's what I've observed. Yours is a relatively big charger too, compared to the normal ones used on miata's.
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2015, 03:41 PM   #34
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
 
patsmx5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 8,796
Total Cats: 247
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Correct, but when the oil is moving, it's not gonna bake on, it spends almost no time inside the turbo before draining back.
It's when you shut the car off and the oil is no longer being pressurized through the chra that you need the water to cool the chra off as fast as possible to prevent what you're talking about.

Operation is kinda like of the oem "oil cooler" which is really a heater.

Yep that's what I've observed. Yours is a relatively big charger too, compared to the normal ones used on miata's.
Why not.
patsmx5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2015, 03:00 PM   #35
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,362
Total Cats: 1,323
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
I just don't understand centrifugals. They produce the least-flat torque curve of anything, and don't offer any advantage which I can perceive over any alternative form of forced induction. Regardless of whether you're on the street or the tack, I just can't see why you'd want to only ever be able to produce peak torque at peak RPM. That concept does not positively correlate with the maximization of either fun or reliability.
CF blowers can be intercooled without altering throttled volume, unlike most PD blower setups. The only way to do that with a PD setup is a dual-throttle hotside blower, and nobody offers that in an off-the-shelf solution.

The rising torque with RPM makes the car easier to manage on track, and the lower average power output results in less strain on the cooling system.

I think turbos are better, but I can absolutely see why CF blowers are popular, and for some people, they are the right solution.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2015, 04:16 PM   #36
Elite Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Mobius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 3,178
Total Cats: 261
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
I don't buy the reliability close to N/A. More power = more heat. No matter what form.

You just make less of it so its more reliable. Turn down the turbo boost and you get the same thing.
More power makes more heat, but with the SC that heat is mostly sent on out through the exhaust, where with the turbo it is contained and made to do work inside the engine bay. There is significantly more heat in the engine bay with the turbo because of this. Engine bay heat management is a non-issue with the Rotrex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
CF blowers can be intercooled without altering throttled volume, unlike most PD blower setups. The only way to do that with a PD setup is a dual-throttle hotside blower, and nobody offers that in an off-the-shelf solution.

The rising torque with RPM makes the car easier to manage on track, and the lower average power output results in less strain on the cooling system.

I think turbos are better, but I can absolutely see why CF blowers are popular, and for some people, they are the right solution.
The some people are people who:
* want some more power
* want to keep reliability
* want ease of installation & maintenance
* the absolutely predictable torque delivery is better for novices, and preferred by some advanced drivers.


What Aidan is lacking is the 8-10 years of watching various forced induction track pioneers on this board blazing a laborious trail towards trackdaybro reliability. It didn't just happen.
Mobius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2015, 11:16 AM   #37
Newb
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 6
Total Cats: -1
Default

So back on topic. I talked to JR at MRLS this year and they said they were having overheating issues with the kit. So they developed a 2 in one radiator/oilcooler, where the cooler is built into the rad as a single unit. I believe it was an oil cooler.... anywho cant remember exactly what the rep said about the release date, just my .02
Akuma R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2015, 07:15 PM   #38
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 272
Total Cats: -22
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akuma R View Post
So back on topic. I talked to JR at MRLS this year and they said they were having overheating issues with the kit. So they developed a 2 in one radiator/oilcooler, where the cooler is built into the rad as a single unit. I believe it was an oil cooler.... anywho cant remember exactly what the rep said about the release date, just my .02

That doesnt sound correct being that the maximum operating temperature of the rotrex is well below engine coolant temperatures.
Alternative is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2015, 07:16 PM   #39
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
iTrader: (5)
 
aidandj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Beaverton, USA
Posts: 17,992
Total Cats: 1,457
Default

From what I've read i believe its an engine oil cooler.
aidandj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2015, 11:51 PM   #40
Senior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: SE NM
Posts: 1,460
Total Cats: 48
Default

CSF is making a custom radiator with an oil cooler in it exclusively for Jackson Racing for NA's and NB's.

CSF announces The "O" Series - CSF Racing

They have an MSRP of $650 for the Subaru STI versions, but it says the Miata version should already be out, but just like everything else that deals with Jackson Racing... it is late to the show.

I have no idea what they plan to supply to get the oil to the radiator in the first place.
Chilicharger665 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
1.8 AVO kit MSpnp mmmjesse Dynos and timesheets 2 09-25-2016 11:52 PM
2000 Miata LS w/ older FMII kit - Cheap! Efini~FC3S Cars for sale/trade 30 05-05-2016 03:05 PM
Part Out Sale! 1.6 BEGi S2 GT2560R kit, injectors, MSPNP, full 3" exhaust and more. Trent Miata parts for sale/trade 12 11-25-2015 07:47 PM
90 Miata Hesitation/Misfire 06MS6 General Miata Chat 1 11-18-2015 08:16 PM
Advanced Auto Sports Oil pressure sending unit relocation kit tomiboy Miata parts for sale/trade 4 11-17-2015 02:04 AM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:37 PM.