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Old 07-20-2008, 06:04 PM   #21
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Personal experience? I've faded Porterfield R4 race pads in my stock brakes.



Personal experience indeed. I've never seen a set of Blues fade on a miata.
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Old 07-25-2008, 07:55 PM   #22
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hawk pads i like them seem to work great
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Old 07-26-2008, 04:31 PM   #23
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Only experience I hace had with the Wilwoods was a friend's FMII 1.6l Miata. After 10 mins at the track, the brakes were GONE. I did 4 sessions on my car with 94 front brakes w/ EBC Yellows, stock rears w/ EBC Greens, SS lines, and Motul. ZERO FADE. Power difference was about 80whp, so I am sure that made some difference. I am currently sourcing out a Sport brake set for the front, and non-sport 1.8 rear brakes. Should work just fine, with some 17X7.5 wheels and 235/40/17 tires.
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Old 07-29-2008, 04:57 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by spike View Post
Baer brakes are pretty much expensive junk,when was the last time you saw Baer brakes on a race car or highend/exotic car.
When was the last time you saw a highend/exotic with Wilwoods? Brembo seems to be the high-end standard.

I see lots of Baer brakes on bigger cars like Corvettes and Mustangs at the regional and national autocrosses, not sure about track situations.

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Originally Posted by spike View Post
The problem with Baer is,they use the same size rotor and caliper for every application,bigger is not always better,especially when it comes down to brakes.
Not true. Take a look at their catalogue at www.Baer.com. They have many different brake calipers, rotors and kits for different applications.

This thread seems to be going off the main topic/question.

Seems to me that one of the primary reasons Miata owners are shying away from the Baer/PBR calipers is because they are heavier than Wilwoods = higher unsprung weight = less responsive suspension. As far as actual stopping power, doesn't anyone remember the issue of Miata Magazine (when it was around) where they installed a Baer Big Brake Kit on their 99 BRG? 60-0 mph stopping in 109 feet, out braking many more expensive cars like Corvettes and Ferraris. I would say they can do a good job of stopping a Miata; dare I say better than stock.

If you can lock your brakes up, there is enough clamping force. Fade resistance and ease of modulation may be a different story. I can't comment because I haven't had personal experience in this area. The only experience I have had is with stock '95M and '93LE brakes compared to my front Wilwood BBK at regional and national autocross events (~60 sec courses). I never experienced fade with either system -- even when there was more than one driver, and not much cool-down time between runs.

It would be nice to hear from someone with more specific personal experience with both the Baer BBK and a Wilwood BBK.

Speaking of bling, I also think people shy away from the Baer kit because of the 2-pot caliper system. Much more fashionable to have 4-pot, or now even 6-pot with differential piston sizes. Again, probably more beneficial on the track, but for a daily driver, it's overkill. The Baer BBK fills the inside of a 16"+ wheel really well, and if you're going for that look, you won't be disappointed.
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Old 08-05-2008, 12:27 PM   #25
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I've been doing some big brake research after my 1st FI track day. Sportcompact magazine or someone like that on the web built a turbo Miata for time attack racing. They had Baer on it and switched them out for some custom set of something else. Big complaint was the weight. Baer's were too HEAVY.

Don't know squat myself. Just regurgitating what I read last week at an auto ezine.

Oh, that craigslist posting is obviously gone now. I did a quick search and couldn't find it again. There was a hardtop there for $800. Decent price these days if any of you SoCal guys need one.
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Old 08-05-2008, 03:09 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenR View Post
Personal experience indeed. I've never seen a set of Blues fade on a miata.
Right, but are those guys running 200whp? At stock power Blues are fine, but when you're stopping the car from 125mph and not 98mph, the game changes. I'm on your side; I hate BBKs fundamentally because people who generally buy them do so to get "better" braking without even the most basic understanding of what their issue is, but for some cars, bigger brakes are the answer.

I'm running a set of Raybestos ST-43 pads in my stock brakes right now, and I'm taking them to Willow Springs in 3 weeks. If they hold up, I won't be getting a BBK. If I get even the slightest hint of fade, a BBK will be on the wishlist - with Carbotechs all around.
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Old 08-07-2008, 12:45 PM   #27
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I've run the Baers and a couple of generations of Wilwood kits on my own cars. I've also driven the KVRs. Keep in mind that I ran the Baers a few years back, it's possible they've changed things. I've also learned a lot since then, and I would test them differently now.

KVR was based in Ottawa where I lived, and I wouldn't even go in there to buy brake fluid. That's all I'm gonna say about that.

The Baers are a bit rough and ready. The rotor is a 13" Mustang GT part that's been turned down to 12.5" and redrilled from a 5-bolt to 4-bolt pattern. Yeah, you can imagine how that looks. The bracket is made from steel. They looked badass, but the rotating mass did really weird things to the steering. It was like having a gyroscope on each front wheel. The pedal was softer (pistons too large) as well. I wasn't really all that impressed, and I was easier to please then. I sold them and installed some Wilwood-based brakes.

The first set of Wilwood brakes I used had a bracket that wasn't quite dimensionally right, causing the pad to hang over the edge of the rotor and develop a lip. Obviously sub-optimal. They also used an off-the-shelf rotor from another application (good) that forced the caliper to sit further outboard than ideal (bad from a wheel fitment standpoint). You can now get two-piece rotors in this offset, making that design a pretty good one if you have wheels that will fit it. Too bad it's no longer available.

I added a proportioning valve eventually and that helped the balance. Later, I went to a four wheel kit and that helped even more

To me, the factors a big brake kit has to address are the following:
- what does it do to the brake bias? Can this be adjusted satisfactorily with an adjustable valve? That's not always the case - if you get too much front bias, you won't be able to dial it out with a valve.
- are the brackets consistently made with some attention paid to weight?
- are the rotors available from more than one source?
- what's the rotating mass?
- what's the unsprung mass? The weight of the bracket and the caliper come in to play here, where the Wilwood does very well.
- what's the quality of the caliper? A flexy caliper with a lot of pistons isn't always a good thing. There was a 6-piston super-sexy kit on the market for a while that just didn't work all that well.
- what's the availability of pads? The Wilwood has a huge advantage here.
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Old 08-08-2008, 05:59 PM   #28
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Keith beat me to it...

It's all about the weight and balance.

They are indeed very heavy compared to stock not to mention you probably have to go to at least a 16in wheel and tire combo (Adding more weight).

The modulation is pretty good although there is a bit of slack between just touching the brakes and having feedback from the pedal, this is not that bad.

Then the F/R bias is also altered much more in a 1.6 than in a 1.8 sport brake setup.

I still have the baers, and I had the rear's upgraded to the Sports, the balance is better but still is off. I will be installing Carbotech Panther Plus in the rear and bobcats in the front to continue to improve the F/R balance. I already installed an adjustable proportioning valve but it does littel to make this noticeably better.

If all this does not tell you to stay away from them I will be more than happy to sell you mine with the new pads and all!!!

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Old 08-08-2008, 06:34 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Right, but are those guys running 200whp? At stock power Blues are fine, but when you're stopping the car from 125mph and not 98mph, the game changes. I'm on your side; I hate BBKs fundamentally because people who generally buy them do so to get "better" braking without even the most basic understanding of what their issue is, but for some cars, bigger brakes are the answer.

I'm running a set of Raybestos ST-43 pads in my stock brakes right now, and I'm taking them to Willow Springs in 3 weeks. If they hold up, I won't be getting a BBK. If I get even the slightest hint of fade, a BBK will be on the wishlist - with Carbotechs all around.


Just take a look at what the EP guys are running.
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Old 08-17-2008, 03:33 PM   #30
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I've been running 1.8 brakes on a higher HP (supercharged, ~200) Miata for a couple years now. For what I've spent on pads and rotors in the past 2 years, I would have about 80% of a BBK kit paid for by now.

I had a couple of instances where the car experienced a loss of control during high speed heavy braking. It was like each wheel was decelerating at it's own pace. The objective in these cases became an issue of keeping the car straight and on the tarmac. Braking earlier, of course, made this problem go away, but didn't help potential lap times.

The kinetic energy present in braking from 125 mph vs 100 mph is 56% more. I think the "brake dancing" was the result of the pads out gassing from too much heat. Perhaps better modulation would be the answer, but I have convinced myself I lack those skills. Regardless, I've decided it's Big Brake time.

There seems to be 2 BBK's for the M1 Miata: Goodwin's and Monster Miata's. Goodwin's has several front rotor options, but maintain 1.8 rear calipers applied to a larger diameter, solid rotor.

When I ran my stock R-package on the track, the rear brakes were just along for the ride. Wear was negligible on both the rotor and pads - you could get 2 seasons on them with no signs of excessive heating or surface crazing on the rear rotor.

With the SC'd Miata on 1.8 brakes, I get about 1 season on the rear pads and rotors with fresh wear and surface crazing present on the rotor surface. They definitely require closer monitoring. Because of this observation I decided Goodwin's kit wasn't the direction I wanted. If I currently have temp issues with the rear brakes I need to address them with the kit upgrade.

I have Monster Miata's BBK on the way. All you buy from them is the rotor hats and adapter brackets. The rotors are 11" vented Wilwoods on all 4 corners. Late 2nd gen turbo or convertible RX-7 rear calipers are used for the rear brakes. The RX-7 calipers let you retain the ebrake.

Front calipers are forged Wilwood Dynalites. Brake pads go to a common backing plate pattern and costs go down from Miata front 1.8s @ ~$135/set to ~$65/set in Hawk HT10 prices.

I hope to have the first run on this brake kit in by the end of Sept.
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Old 08-18-2008, 08:40 PM   #31
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The FM kit is no longer the Goodwin setup. Also, I believe Brembo has a (very large and very expensive) kit available as well. So there are at least four options.
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Old 08-21-2008, 08:32 PM   #32
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Brakes.... generating heat is only part of the equation! You need to dissipate that heat in order to sustain continuous braking... or fade and pad wear increase dramatically.

I upgraded to to 1.8L / Hawk SPS / 225 tire and can lock up the fronts, but without cooling ducting - only a few times.

Go with 1.8L with a good pad and ducting.

That being said ... I’m working on a 11" VW Corrodo rotor / relocation bracket for the stock caliper. If it works Ill start a new thread w/ pics.
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Old 08-22-2008, 08:10 PM   #33
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If you use Corrado rotors, we have a two-piece rotor available as an upgrade. Not a cheap upgrade, but it's still a cool option to have.
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Old 08-22-2008, 10:15 PM   #34
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*.corrado > anything else
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