The Better Bilstein Ebay Coilover Thread
11-05-2016, 02:01 PM
#941
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 48
Total Cats: 2
Hi all, I'm new here and I've gone through just about this whole thread and I'm going to dive into this project. My intentions are a dual-purpose NA and while my bank account has always been in the black, I still enjoy ramen -- but I cook it on the stove and don't eat it out of recycled styrofoam like a savage.
I'm planning on getting a set of NB hard-s's that include NB stock springs. I also planned on getting this eBay kit: FRONT+REAR ALUMINUM SCALED COILOVER 0-3" SPRING KIT 90-97 MIATA MX-5 MX5 NA BLUE | eBay, top hats (from where?) and Integra Speedthane bump-stops.
Question:
- If I use that eBay spring and perch kit, do I need helper springs, or new circlips?
- What else am I missing here?
Thanks for all advice in advanced.
I'm planning on getting a set of NB hard-s's that include NB stock springs. I also planned on getting this eBay kit: FRONT+REAR ALUMINUM SCALED COILOVER 0-3" SPRING KIT 90-97 MIATA MX-5 MX5 NA BLUE | eBay, top hats (from where?) and Integra Speedthane bump-stops.
Question:
- If I use that eBay spring and perch kit, do I need helper springs, or new circlips?
- What else am I missing here?
Thanks for all advice in advanced.
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11-05-2016, 02:27 PM
#942
Hi all, I'm new here and I've gone through just about this whole thread and I'm going to dive into this project. My intentions are a dual-purpose NA and while my bank account has always been in the black, I still enjoy ramen -- but I cook it on the stove and don't eat it out of recycled styrofoam like a savage.
I'm planning on getting a set of NB hard-s's that include NB stock springs. I also planned on getting this eBay kit: FRONT+REAR ALUMINUM SCALED COILOVER 0-3" SPRING KIT 90-97 MIATA MX-5 MX5 NA BLUE | eBay, top hats (from where?) and Integra Speedthane bump-stops.
Question:
- If I use that eBay spring and perch kit, do I need helper springs, or new circlips?
- What else am I missing here?
Thanks for all advice in advanced.
I'm planning on getting a set of NB hard-s's that include NB stock springs. I also planned on getting this eBay kit: FRONT+REAR ALUMINUM SCALED COILOVER 0-3" SPRING KIT 90-97 MIATA MX-5 MX5 NA BLUE | eBay, top hats (from where?) and Integra Speedthane bump-stops.
Question:
- If I use that eBay spring and perch kit, do I need helper springs, or new circlips?
- What else am I missing here?
Thanks for all advice in advanced.
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0
11-05-2016, 02:46 PM
#944
You need to go back and read the thread some more, you've missed about 75% of the info.
You can't use stock springs, springs in the eBay kit are no where near right for a miata, use stock NB top hats, you need either larger circlips or have the sleeves machines so the stock ones fit into a recess to prevent the sleeves from dislodging the clips in a spectacular fashion........ That's enough spoon feeding.
You can't use stock springs, springs in the eBay kit are no where near right for a miata, use stock NB top hats, you need either larger circlips or have the sleeves machines so the stock ones fit into a recess to prevent the sleeves from dislodging the clips in a spectacular fashion........ That's enough spoon feeding.
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11-05-2016, 02:47 PM
#945
Well if you're going to use coilover sleeves you can't use the stock springs. I used Summit springs (as have others). They're reasonable and from a reliable source.
These sleeves are the right length (no cutting) and fit over the stock clips.
https://www.advanced-autosports.com/...sleeve-and-nut
You should read through the thread before asking too many questions that've been answered.
These sleeves are the right length (no cutting) and fit over the stock clips.
https://www.advanced-autosports.com/...sleeve-and-nut
You should read through the thread before asking too many questions that've been answered.
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11-06-2016, 02:38 AM
#946
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 48
Total Cats: 2
Okay, let's see if I've shaken some of the retard off.
Summit Racing 500/300 (front spring lb per in / rear spring lb per in, right?) and both 7 inches
Snap rings (4): Bilstein 2 Inch Steel Body Coil-Over Snap Ring
Energy Suspension isolators, 4
Integra bumpstops, 4
NB top-hats, 4 (part number NC10-28-340C)
Top-hat bushing, 4 (NC1028776)
Advanced Autosport sleeve and nut kit
Still unsure about tenders/helpers. Not required if you have enough spring already, correct?
Wordage question: in terms of sleeve and nut, nut is a synonym for perch?
For a basic setup, the only thing different between front and rear are springs and shocks?
Summit Racing 500/300 (front spring lb per in / rear spring lb per in, right?) and both 7 inches
Snap rings (4): Bilstein 2 Inch Steel Body Coil-Over Snap Ring
Energy Suspension isolators, 4
Integra bumpstops, 4
NB top-hats, 4 (part number NC10-28-340C)
Top-hat bushing, 4 (NC1028776)
Advanced Autosport sleeve and nut kit
Still unsure about tenders/helpers. Not required if you have enough spring already, correct?
Wordage question: in terms of sleeve and nut, nut is a synonym for perch?
For a basic setup, the only thing different between front and rear are springs and shocks?
Last edited by pizzle; 11-06-2016 at 07:41 AM. Reason: retard hat is still on
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11-06-2016, 10:01 AM
#947
Okay, let's see if I've shaken some of the retard off.
Summit Racing 500/300 (front spring lb per in / rear spring lb per in, right?) and both 7 inches
Snap rings (4): Bilstein 2 Inch Steel Body Coil-Over Snap Ring
Energy Suspension isolators, 4
Integra bumpstops, 4
NB top-hats, 4 (part number NC10-28-340C)
Top-hat bushing, 4 (NC1028776)
Advanced Autosport sleeve and nut kit
Still unsure about tenders/helpers. Not required if you have enough spring already, correct?
Wordage question: in terms of sleeve and nut, nut is a synonym for perch?
For a basic setup, the only thing different between front and rear are springs and shocks?
Summit Racing 500/300 (front spring lb per in / rear spring lb per in, right?) and both 7 inches
Snap rings (4): Bilstein 2 Inch Steel Body Coil-Over Snap Ring
Energy Suspension isolators, 4
Integra bumpstops, 4
NB top-hats, 4 (part number NC10-28-340C)
Top-hat bushing, 4 (NC1028776)
Advanced Autosport sleeve and nut kit
Still unsure about tenders/helpers. Not required if you have enough spring already, correct?
Wordage question: in terms of sleeve and nut, nut is a synonym for perch?
For a basic setup, the only thing different between front and rear are springs and shocks?
What's the plan for ride height? You may want to invest in TwoSix top hats. Someone else will chime in...
Spring rate I guess would be more "purpose built" i.e. only a dd or any AutoX or track time?
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11-06-2016, 10:05 AM
#948
Rates look decent for a street car, tender springs are a matter of preference, the springs will rattle loose when a tire is off the ground, this doesn't hurt anything. Some folks seem to get hung up on this and I have no idea why. Tender springs do nothing for performance, some will argue this.....
As mentioned you don't need the clips with those sleeves, you need two top hat bushings per hat, so if that part number is for one you need 8.
Extended top hats might be a good idea, but it just depends on your ride height. Read up on those and decide for yourself.
As mentioned you don't need the clips with those sleeves, you need two top hat bushings per hat, so if that part number is for one you need 8.
Extended top hats might be a good idea, but it just depends on your ride height. Read up on those and decide for yourself.
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11-06-2016, 10:14 AM
#950
Care to explain how they do? In my mind when you've transferred all the weight off the corner to get to where the tender spring is active the only thing you're doing is expanding the wheel travel in the lightly loaded range. I personally I'd rather have less travel to reduce body roll.
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11-06-2016, 10:18 AM
#951
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
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Location: Beaverton, USA
Posts: 18,642
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Quote from Emilio on the subject of the helpers used on the xidas
MX-5 Miata Forum - View Single Post - Xida CS vs. FCM NAs
MX-5 Miata Forum - View Single Post - Xida CS vs. FCM NAs
The Xida, being a long stroke damper, requires dual springs to make full use of the extra stroke available.
Spring stroke vs suspension articulation
A 2000 lb car with the motion ratio of just under 1.5:1 won't compress a short 700# spring far enough to allow meaningful droop travel with long stroke damper. To get the correct ride height, one must lower the preload collar until the springs have 25-60mm of free play. Without the secondary springs (helper), there is no spring stroke left to push the tire down to remain in contact with the road.
Weight
To get the correct spring rate for competition and high performance use while retaining enough spring stroke, would require a 9-11" long spring. Springs aren't light, particularly less expensive springs so that isn't a good solution. Hyperco and Swift generally have the lightest and most consistent rate springs on the market. We use Hyperco's because they cost about the same as Swifts and many of the sizes utilize their proprietary OBD (Optimum Body Diameter) design technology which further reduces weight and helps control distortion under compression.
Progressive rate
Beyond the spring weight issue, the Miata doesn't need 400-800lb springs when at full extension as the contact patch loading is almost nil then. A much lower rate will work better with that lightly loaded tire. What is called for is a progressive rate spring. Look at any purpose built race car that has more than about 75mm of damper stroke and you'll see dual springs. Off road and rally cars will often use three separate springs stacked up for a huge spring rate range.
Costs
If you start with the higher rate single spring setup then upgrade to duals later, the main springs may have to be swapped for a shorter set at the cost of about $150/pair. We offer the Xida Club Sport without the helpers for the Miata owner on a tight budget. The system will do everything better with the dual springs in place though. We tested the single spring Club Sports on our local bumpy road course on a Spec Miata with 9" wheels. They worked very well. Well enough for me to be comfortable offering the XCS without the helpers. Guys have been adding high spring rate Ground Control and other coilover sleeves to their Bilsteins and Koni Sports forever with good results so it's not like it doesn't work at all. It's just less than optimum. "Less that optimum" wasn't in the design criteria for the Xida's
.
Spring stroke vs suspension articulation
A 2000 lb car with the motion ratio of just under 1.5:1 won't compress a short 700# spring far enough to allow meaningful droop travel with long stroke damper. To get the correct ride height, one must lower the preload collar until the springs have 25-60mm of free play. Without the secondary springs (helper), there is no spring stroke left to push the tire down to remain in contact with the road.
Weight
To get the correct spring rate for competition and high performance use while retaining enough spring stroke, would require a 9-11" long spring. Springs aren't light, particularly less expensive springs so that isn't a good solution. Hyperco and Swift generally have the lightest and most consistent rate springs on the market. We use Hyperco's because they cost about the same as Swifts and many of the sizes utilize their proprietary OBD (Optimum Body Diameter) design technology which further reduces weight and helps control distortion under compression.
Progressive rate
Beyond the spring weight issue, the Miata doesn't need 400-800lb springs when at full extension as the contact patch loading is almost nil then. A much lower rate will work better with that lightly loaded tire. What is called for is a progressive rate spring. Look at any purpose built race car that has more than about 75mm of damper stroke and you'll see dual springs. Off road and rally cars will often use three separate springs stacked up for a huge spring rate range.
Costs
If you start with the higher rate single spring setup then upgrade to duals later, the main springs may have to be swapped for a shorter set at the cost of about $150/pair. We offer the Xida Club Sport without the helpers for the Miata owner on a tight budget. The system will do everything better with the dual springs in place though. We tested the single spring Club Sports on our local bumpy road course on a Spec Miata with 9" wheels. They worked very well. Well enough for me to be comfortable offering the XCS without the helpers. Guys have been adding high spring rate Ground Control and other coilover sleeves to their Bilsteins and Koni Sports forever with good results so it's not like it doesn't work at all. It's just less than optimum. "Less that optimum" wasn't in the design criteria for the Xida's
.
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11-06-2016, 10:28 AM
#953
Also, a torsen is useless with a tire off the ground, even risk exploding the thing. Anything you can do to keep the tire on the road is a plus, if you hear the springs rattling loose there ain't much holding the tire to the ground.
If the springs aren't coming loose while you're driving hard you probably don't need a tender. Even without long travel dampers, my rears were coming free all the time with NB hard-s billies and 7" 350lb springs. Something like 5.25 to the pinch weld IIRC.
If the springs aren't coming loose while you're driving hard you probably don't need a tender. Even without long travel dampers, my rears were coming free all the time with NB hard-s billies and 7" 350lb springs. Something like 5.25 to the pinch weld IIRC.
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11-06-2016, 10:40 AM
#954
This gets deep into suspension theory, but roll centers and CG height dictate how much weight is transferred during a turn. The springs just change how the chassis responds to that weight transfer. There is one caveat here though, chassis lean moves the CG and the instant center for the worse, which is why we go for stiffer rates trying to reduce the weight transfer.
So with that out of the way, let's discuss that last inch or so of droop travel where the tender/helper spring comes into play. We would have less than 100lb on the spring for a 2" 50lb/in helper to start to unseat, so you transfer that last 100 lb off that corner and you get 2" of droop travel. With a 800 lb/in spring you would have 1/8" of droop travel.
In my mind I'd rather have 1/8" of travel than 2"....because you would have less weight transfer due to CG movement.
Now this whole discussion is predicated on the fact you can actually transfer that much weight off the inside tire to get less than 100lb on a corner.
So with that out of the way, let's discuss that last inch or so of droop travel where the tender/helper spring comes into play. We would have less than 100lb on the spring for a 2" 50lb/in helper to start to unseat, so you transfer that last 100 lb off that corner and you get 2" of droop travel. With a 800 lb/in spring you would have 1/8" of droop travel.
In my mind I'd rather have 1/8" of travel than 2"....because you would have less weight transfer due to CG movement.
Now this whole discussion is predicated on the fact you can actually transfer that much weight off the inside tire to get less than 100lb on a corner.
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11-06-2016, 10:43 AM
#955
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
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Join Date: Apr 2014
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I can get that much weight off Everytime I hit the gnarly bump in turn 1 at PIR. Wheel drops to full droop.
Or any other big drop. It's not a common occurrence. But we're talking about the last couple % of performance here. Not just normal driving.
Your car will be fine without helpers. But I don't believe they are pointless.
Or any other big drop. It's not a common occurrence. But we're talking about the last couple % of performance here. Not just normal driving.
Your car will be fine without helpers. But I don't believe they are pointless.
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11-06-2016, 11:53 AM
#956
Okay, let's see if I've shaken some of the retard off.
Summit Racing 500/300 (front spring lb per in / rear spring lb per in, right?) and both 7 inches
Snap rings (4): Bilstein 2 Inch Steel Body Coil-Over Snap Ring
Energy Suspension isolators, 4
Integra bumpstops, 4
NB top-hats, 4 (part number NC10-28-340C)
Top-hat bushing, 4 (NC1028776)
Advanced Autosport sleeve and nut kit
Still unsure about tenders/helpers. Not required if you have enough spring already, correct?
Wordage question: in terms of sleeve and nut, nut is a synonym for perch?
For a basic setup, the only thing different between front and rear are springs and shocks?
Summit Racing 500/300 (front spring lb per in / rear spring lb per in, right?) and both 7 inches
Snap rings (4): Bilstein 2 Inch Steel Body Coil-Over Snap Ring
Energy Suspension isolators, 4
Integra bumpstops, 4
NB top-hats, 4 (part number NC10-28-340C)
Top-hat bushing, 4 (NC1028776)
Advanced Autosport sleeve and nut kit
Still unsure about tenders/helpers. Not required if you have enough spring already, correct?
Wordage question: in terms of sleeve and nut, nut is a synonym for perch?
For a basic setup, the only thing different between front and rear are springs and shocks?
On my car (NB1), to get to the 949 ride height I had to take out the helpers and the collar was at the bottom of the sleeve. You could have someone move the clip groove but at some point you have to say enough...
I find 550/400 to be a decently comfortable ride.
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11-06-2016, 03:42 PM
#957
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 48
Total Cats: 2
Thanks for the input. This is for a dual-purpose car -- I've never had a car with aftermarket suspension before, so I'm willing to go firmer just for the hell of it. Maybe split the difference and do 500/xxx ?
I've also never driven on the track in a car before (just screwed around at 2 track days on my Speed Triple, which is obviously a terrible track bike), so I'll forgo helpers and extended hats for now. That'll save over 200 bucks. Or I'll wait for something to show up in the forums.
Ride height I'm still not sure about. I've got the stock 14s on there for now, but plan on getting some sort of 15 in the future (also for ***** and giggles as I've never bought aftermarket wheels before either). Since I don't really know what I'm doing here, but hope to learn more with track time, so following the crowd with stock height or a little lower (12.5-13?).
Seems like in the pictures of what people are building, they're using the extra cut-off piece of bumpstop for the top bushing?
I've also never driven on the track in a car before (just screwed around at 2 track days on my Speed Triple, which is obviously a terrible track bike), so I'll forgo helpers and extended hats for now. That'll save over 200 bucks. Or I'll wait for something to show up in the forums.
Ride height I'm still not sure about. I've got the stock 14s on there for now, but plan on getting some sort of 15 in the future (also for ***** and giggles as I've never bought aftermarket wheels before either). Since I don't really know what I'm doing here, but hope to learn more with track time, so following the crowd with stock height or a little lower (12.5-13?).
Seems like in the pictures of what people are building, they're using the extra cut-off piece of bumpstop for the top bushing?
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11-06-2016, 05:41 PM
#958
Senior Member
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Lambertville, NJ
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Went to the Englishtown, NJ Road Course today. The track is decidedly meh. Very rough in spots. Lots of sudden vertical movement. This is the track that separates the man-suspension from the boy-suspensions. Running 550/350 springs with Bilsteins (Hard-S NB), ride-height 4.5"/4.75". At that ride-height the spring rate was clearly insufficient for this track. And I learned that my bump-stops are too short. I hit metal-metal sometimes (sounded like rear) and had a lot of rubbing even with rolled fenders (225.45 Rival/s in 9" wheels).
What are the highest spring rates you guys are running with the Billies? It feels like they could handle more spring rate- not much wallowing noticeable yet....
What are the highest spring rates you guys are running with the Billies? It feels like they could handle more spring rate- not much wallowing noticeable yet....
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