Blown tein? Good? - Page 2 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 08-19-2012, 09:17 PM   #21
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Yeah it said not good because I was starting to write not bad and the sentence chanced course and I didnt notice it. other option for that money thats good is koni sports or yellows with GC sleeves and springs. I know I rag on twin tubes a lot, but when done properly they work just a well as monotubes.
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:38 PM   #22
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GCs are kind of pricey, especially compared to the Flyin Miata suspension kits. With your expertise, what shock + spring combo do you recommend, and why?
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:52 PM   #23
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For the cheap money I did like the FM spring + koni yellow I drove on. It needed more front bar though, seemed to roll almost as much as stock with a big bar. But for like another week worth of savings you could get the vmaxx or the koni sport + GC which I have not personally experienced, but know the koni GC combo is good. I will say the suspension I hated the most on a miata was koni yellows with r package springs and the stiff rear fcm bumps, soft front, it was painful, worse than the r-package springs and shocks with 18 year old rubber bump stops.
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:00 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
For the cheap money I did like the FM spring + koni yellow I drove on. It needed more front bar though, seemed to roll almost as much as stock with a big bar. But for like another week worth of savings you could get the vmaxx or the koni sport + GC which I have not personally experienced, but know the koni GC combo is good. I will say the suspension I hated the most on a miata was koni yellows with r package springs and the stiff rear fcm bumps, soft front, it was painful, worse than the r-package springs and shocks with 18 year old rubber bump stops.
You have yet to answer why on any of your posts. You state you "have not personally experienced, but know the koni GC combo is good." Why is the Vmaxx ><= the konis, the teins, etc.?

You have said some is good, some is bad, but have yet to say why. You are obviously an expert, please share your knowledge.
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:13 PM   #25
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I had a couple paragraphs that I was trying to squeeze in on the last few percent of my laptop battery but I wasn't fast enough. I'll write it again tomorrow.
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:22 PM   #26
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I'd like to order a suspension soon, and look forward you the knowledge you can share.
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:30 PM   #27
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I love my inconsistent tiens.
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Old 08-20-2012, 08:45 AM   #28
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Ok. Dampers, they're very difficult to quantify and an grasp. Sure you can get all kinds of shock plots from shock dynos, the ones you normally see from everyone are actually not the most helpful. The standard plot of damping force vs speed is actually very easy to manipulate if you are the dyno operator, you can really make them look however you want if you feel so inclined. The plot you really want to see is the hysteresis measurement, this is where you can see an inconsistent damper and one with lots of hysteresis (basically resistance to change in direction of motion). A crappy high hysteresis shock might have 200 pounds of damping force in compression at 1 inch/sec in a steady state on the plot but when the motion first starts it could be many times that number, which gives a harsh feeling. Typically twin tubes have lots of hysteresis, konis don't seem to, and they could just be this way because a lot of cheap shocks are twin tubes.

To the koni GC combo, I should have said believe rather than know. There a multiple people who's opinions I respect who've run them or driven on them that liked them, and consider them a good setup for the money.

If going with a coil over setup and picking all the parts, what I would do it, pick the best shocks you can afford, find out what the stiffest spring is that they can properly control, use FCM's calculator to figure out the best spring spring combo for the car that doesnt exceed the max spring rates the dampers can properly control and go from there. The best spring combo is pretty subjective as well, but shaik has some fast cars listed on that calculator already, you just need to remember CSP has slicks and you want your roll couple a tad further forward than those cars. I'm also sure that the spring rates that work well and are fast on the koni setup are posted somewhere.

But if you only want to go shock and spring, the only setup I've personally can vouch for is the FM on koni yellow setup.

If you want to get some good reading in I suggest Technical Papers - OptimumG and starting with springs and dampers part 1.
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Old 08-20-2012, 09:58 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
To the koni GC combo, I should have said believe rather than know. There a multiple people who's opinions I respect who've run them or driven on them that liked them, and consider them a good setup for the money.

I'd kill myself before driving on Konis ever again. They are a horrible damper.
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Old 08-20-2012, 10:07 AM   #30
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Which konis? With the GC's we're talking about sports (or race, I've heard of using sports on one end and races on the other). With yellows I've really only liked them on a miata with FM springs and on a wrx with custom springs. I hated them with r-package springs. And I dont remember them being all that bad on a stock class G35, but didnt drive that car. And you feel feel the same way about konis as I do about teins. I cant speak for the monoflex but their twin tubes are horrid.
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Old 08-20-2012, 10:11 AM   #31
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why oh WHY are you bringing different cars into this stupid argument? omg, I'm face palming so hard right now I think I broke my face.
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Old 08-20-2012, 10:17 AM   #32
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Well lets see. They have springs and dampers, 4 wheels, and an engine. Suspension is suspension in this case. Sure the shock valving will be different, sure the shock bodies will be different, sure the spring rates will be different, but the shocks still work the same no matter what they're on.
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Old 08-20-2012, 10:20 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
Well lets see. They have springs and dampers, 4 wheels, and an engine. Suspension is suspension in this case. Sure the shock valving will be different, sure the shock bodies will be different, sure the spring rates will be different, but the shocks still work the same no matter what they're on.
No, they won't. They will feel completely different on different cars beause they're valved completely differently for different cars, and other cars have different driving characteristics due to different weight and distribution and ride softer/harsher/crisper/etcetcetcetcetc.

That is the most idiotic argument ever made.

kinda like comparing the mazda BP to a Honda B or k series and saying "well they have the same displacement, and 4 cylinders, so they should feel the same".


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Old 08-20-2012, 10:22 AM   #34
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A **** shock will be a **** shock no matter what car you put it on.
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Old 08-20-2012, 10:25 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
Which konis? With the GC's we're talking about sports (or race, I've heard of using sports on one end and races on the other). With yellows I've really only liked them on a miata with FM springs and on a wrx with custom springs. I hated them with r-package springs. And I dont remember them being all that bad on a stock class G35, but didnt drive that car. And you feel feel the same way about konis as I do about teins. I cant speak for the monoflex but their twin tubes are horrid.

Koni sports (yellow); I've run them with stock, FM (313/233), 500/300, and 400/250 rate springs.

They have horrible valving designed solely for autocrossers using stock springs.

Why the Tein Flexes are perfect and have flaws of their own (twin-tubes), they are worlds above any of the above combos I've run on my personal car. I've had the Konis since 2001 and have plently of miles with them and struggled for years to get them to ride and handle well. I was constantly adjusting them and swapping springs and fooling with sway bars and replacing my teeth from them chattering together over bumps. I finally swapped them out for the flexes and I've only ever adjusted them once since installing and that was to add a little bit of extra rear damping to increase the oversteer just a bit because it was pushing a little when I'd tug fast on the wheel. The flexes ride smooth, and handle worlds above the Koni's could ever wet dream about.

I'll never ever in good conscience ever recommend the Koni sports to another person, unless I hate them and I want them to enjoy a shitty ride quality and poor performance.
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Old 08-20-2012, 10:56 AM   #36
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I managed a 1:42 at Barber on my GC/Koni Sports 500/300 setup -

On another note - road courses generally don't have potholes or speed bumps - other then planting the car on gators and jumping curbs. I just took the same setup off the track car and put them on the daily '93 and much to my amazement, rides actually quite smooth. Maybe our roads down here ain't as bad as yours - or maybe you have a delicate ***.
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Old 08-20-2012, 01:18 PM   #37
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I've had tein flex's on my car since 2007 and have been perfectly happy with them. Back then they were the best shock emillo carried and i got them in 12/9 configuration. I've done a couple open track events but primarily DD. They have been excellent. I had yellows prior and they were not nearly as comfortable to dd.
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Old 08-20-2012, 01:27 PM   #38
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Quote:
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I'd kill myself before driving on Konis ever again. They are a horrible damper.
^This. I HATED the Koni shocks. Worst shock ever.
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Old 08-20-2012, 05:57 PM   #39
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go get a set of raceland and call it a day. 299 with 2 years warranty.
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Old 08-20-2012, 09:23 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chpmnsws6 View Post
^This. I HATED the Koni shocks. Worst shock ever.
Many, MANY national level ST* cars run OTS koni yellows. Not the best shocks out there, but if you're spending ONLY $1000 on suspension, koni and ground control is an excellent option.


As for twin tubes vs. mono tubes...... Keep drinking the marketing cool-aid. 95% of people can't tell the difference between good shocks and bad shocks. AST vs. AFCO; Bilstein vs. koni. It's all about the application.
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