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Old 06-05-2008, 08:52 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by spoolin2bars View Post
my friends 1990 300zxtt had it! it's 18 yrs. old! also, tein has had the edfc available for years now.
Active suspension debuted in '83, was finalized in '87, and banned in '93.

There's also a big difference between fully active suspension and a two-stage electronically switched shock
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Old 06-05-2008, 10:52 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Rafa View Post
Here's another question (sorry Sam but it's in the same subject): why does everyone in the Miata community always suggest that the rear sway bar must be taken out when the suspension is changed to a shorter spring based one?
I still have my rear sway in and always remembered thinking I read somewhere that it should come out. Maybe I'll take it out and see what its like....

Vash-
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Old 06-06-2008, 12:38 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Saml01 View Post
Hmm. Something to consider for the future.

Dont IM me Chad, I know what youre gonna say
yeah, but if you ARE on a smooth road course, you can adjust them before you get in the car and drive. not to mention you wont even be fiddling with that **** when you're driving on the track. unless you like the color of wall on your bumper.
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Old 06-06-2008, 12:54 AM   #24
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When it comes to suspension, you can't look at each item separately, you have to look at it as a whole. Your tires are the starting point. With shitty tires you are best off on stock suspension as it is soft and doesn't load the tires like Paul said. If you upgrade you tires to better gripping ones, then you will benefit fomr less roll, which means everything has to be changed. Stiffer springs will help the car roll less but it is ok since the tires can handle it now. Stiffer springs rebound quicker as well, that is why you need "harder shocks". "Harder" shocks are now needed to prevent the tire from hopping up and down after the spring compresses in a situation because it will want to bounce more now since it is stiffer. It is important to have your valvin matched to your springs rate for this reason. The stiffer the spring, the stiffer (harder) the valvingin the shock should be. Having the best set up means it has to be matched to each other. The stiffer your shocks and springs,the more grip you need in order not to overload the tires. Then come stiffer sway bars. A stiffer bar will further help reduce roll, again, not something you need with shitty tires, you are reducing roll to make better use of your tires, but if they are shitty, you are only making matters worse. Assuming you do have grippier tires, you want less roll, with less roll you are maximizing the grip of your tire. Endlinks help you fine tune your desired roll, much like spring rates. If your spring rates are higher, you get less roll, if they are lower, you get more roll. Endlinks allow you that type of control, in a different way though. They allow you to adjust the tension of the sway bar. Softer setting will allow more roll, harder setting less roll.
Sway bars keep the two sides working somewhat together. When you are turning, you put all the weight on the outside of the car, naturally the outside wants to dip but the inside wants to lift since the load is off of it now. Sway bars halp take some of the load of the outside and try to put it on the inside. This helps you in several ways, first it helps you not overload the outside tire/suspension, second it pulls the inside tire/suspension down, this will give you better overallgrip since you have the two sides working together now.

The rear sway does not have to be taken out. In lots of cases it helps if it is not there, but not everyone has to do this. I still ahve my stock rear bar in place.
The reason a lot of people remove it, is to maximize grip coming out of a corner or in a corner in general. The miata does not have a lot of travel in the rear suspension components and when turning if you have stiff springs back there, the inside tire does not have a lot of load on it and does not grip well, we all know what happens then. The point of taking the rear bar out is so the rear is more independent.

Also, Sam, there is no such thing as an ideal set up for more than one type of driving. If you plan to track your car and drive it on the street, you will have to compromise. Decide what is more important to you and build your suspension to suit your wants and needs.

I hope I make sense, it is late andI'm about 6 brewskies in. Good night!
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Old 06-06-2008, 12:55 AM   #25
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Oooops, sorry for not making this shorter, I got carried away.
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Old 06-06-2008, 03:40 AM   #26
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Nice I have a question too!

I'm about to make my suspension: FM coilspring with koni. I'm thinking for FC bumpstop too but I'm affraid it won't be enough as the road are very bad around here. I read somewhere about NB tophat? Someone can tell me more about this?
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Old 06-06-2008, 01:16 PM   #27
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You put the NB top hats on there to increase shock travel, thereby keeping the car off the bumpstops. Basically, the spring's location to the car doesn't change, but the shock mounting point is raised about an inch. This allows for another inch of suspension travel before you contact the bumpstops, if you stay at the same ride height. The main advantage comes from putting them in the rear.
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Old 06-07-2008, 01:01 AM   #28
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I've got kyb adjustables, so I have to crawl under the car to adjust them, and I hardly see that as a burden when I go from road to track, or vise versa.

I had the same issue with bottoming out in the back, so I made some spring spacers, FCM used to have them, but I can't find them anymore.
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Old 06-07-2008, 10:29 AM   #29
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I think the main reason people remove the rear bar is because the spring rates that come standard on many coilovers do not have enough difference front to rear and the car becomes more tail happy. Removing the rear bar fixes this, it also gives you more traction. There are downsides to removing the rear bar as well, which you can find reasons for by searching (I'm not positive on the technical reasons) I personally have had that kind of setup and now have changed to a higher front spring rate and retained the factory rear sway bar with a hollow RB up front and much prefer it this way.
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Old 06-07-2008, 11:20 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by johndoe View Post
I think the main reason people remove the rear bar is because the spring rates that come standard on many coilovers do not have enough difference front to rear and the car becomes more tail happy. Removing the rear bar fixes this, it also gives you more traction. There are downsides to removing the rear bar as well, which you can find reasons for by searching (I'm not positive on the technical reasons) I personally have had that kind of setup and now have changed to a higher front spring rate and retained the factory rear sway bar with a hollow RB up front and much prefer it this way.
I like your approach much better than taking out the rear sway bar. Also, fwiw, ever since I first bought my Miata with stock suspension I always found it "tail happy" when compared to other cars I've owned. The oversteer actually improved when I first installed the FM springs with Bilstein shocks; go figure!
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Old 06-08-2008, 06:07 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Rafa View Post
Thanks; btw, (my apologies again Sam) I have the tein basics also installed with the FCM bumpstops and I can't get the ones in the back from hitting them every time I hit a pothole no matter what I do.

Any suggestions?

Thanks
What ride height are you at? With the basics and SS because they don't have an adjustable shock body length like the flex you have to ride a lot higher than they suggest from tein if you want anything close to an acceptable (not bottoming out all the time) ride.

I am at 12.5"F 13"R with NB topmounts and cut tein bumpstops (removed 1 ring) and I finally have enough travel to not bottom out when driving hard on bad roads, but I am thinking about ISC topmounts so I can go just a little bit lower and still have this much travel.

I know that it sucks to hear that you have to go higher, but so far thats the only thing that has been able to fix the **** ride.

And johndoe, where did you get the new front springs from? Tein? Do they cost a lot?

I personally mess with my teins quite a lot, so EDFC would be nice at times, but one of the good things about these shocks is that they take barely any time at all to adjust versus the under the car kind.
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Old 06-08-2008, 06:25 PM   #32
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I got the springs through Emilio and yes they are Tein springs. The price has gone up since I got mine, they're now $120 a pair

http://949racing.com/index.asp?PageA...PROD&ProdID=50
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Old 06-10-2008, 11:22 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Zabac View Post

Also, Sam, there is no such thing as an ideal set up for more than one type of driving. If you plan to track your car and drive it on the street, you will have to compromise. Decide what is more important to you and build your suspension to suit your wants and needs.

I hope I make sense, it is late andI'm about 6 brewskies in. Good night!
What would I buy if I wanted shocks for the following?:

90% street driven, something that will make the car feel more sure footed. Wont bounce around and shake like an OX cart when traversing bumps and pot holes. Wont understeer in corners so much or feel like it doesnt want to turn, and wont roll like the titanic.

-----

How do you guys know, what spring rates you need? What is the indicator that you need 500# for the front and 400# for the back? Why more for the front?

------

Im looking at Koni's site. They sell a coilover Kit, sport yellow. No indication of any of the important parameters. How do I know what kind of enhancement they will produce? I know some of you run these, but other then personal experience what do you base the purchase on?

600 bucks seems like a bargain to me. What else is in the same neighborhood?

Last edited by Saml01; 06-10-2008 at 11:48 PM.
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:01 AM   #34
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konis out of the box aren't very nice. something interesting would be tein basic or illuminas and fm springs or something to that effect.
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:51 AM   #35
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sam, i like the set-up i have kyb agx's with fm springs and FCM 36mm bumpstops......4 in the front 3 in the back....its nice and tight but the bumps aren't reall that bad....next time you come down to the area you can take the car for a drive to see and i'll bring you to some bumpy *** road to get a real feel for em
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Old 06-11-2008, 01:19 AM   #36
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you mentioned you don't want to understeer into corners. the others will correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain that has more to do with sway bars, if you ignore tires, tire pressure, road condition, etc. which all have to do with understeer/oversteer

I have FM's front and rear bars. stock I had a little understeer into corners, and anything more then a little wiggle of oversteer and I would spin. changing nothing but the bars, I experienced (besides the decrease in body roll) significantly less understeer and incredibly easy-to-control oversteer, no matter how sideways I got.
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Old 06-11-2008, 01:39 AM   #37
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From what I've seen, Illuminas look like they offer alot esp for the price (380 ebay)

However, reading the "list ur setup" thread, doesnt seem like many people are going for them... dunno y tho?
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Old 06-11-2008, 10:22 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curly View Post
you mentioned you don't want to understeer into corners. the others will correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain that has more to do with sway bars, if you ignore tires, tire pressure, road condition, etc. which all have to do with understeer/oversteer

I have FM's front and rear bars. stock I had a little understeer into corners, and anything more then a little wiggle of oversteer and I would spin. changing nothing but the bars, I experienced (besides the decrease in body roll) significantly less understeer and incredibly easy-to-control oversteer, no matter how sideways I got.
what are your spring rates?
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:07 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Saml01 View Post
What would I buy if I wanted shocks for the following?:

90% street driven, something that will make the car feel more sure footed. Wont bounce around and shake like an OX cart when traversing bumps and pot holes. Wont understeer in corners so much or feel like it doesnt want to turn, and wont roll like the titanic.

-----

How do you guys know, what spring rates you need? What is the indicator that you need 500# for the front and 400# for the back? Why more for the front?

------

Im looking at Koni's site. They sell a coilover Kit, sport yellow. No indication of any of the important parameters. How do I know what kind of enhancement they will produce? I know some of you run these, but other then personal experience what do you base the purchase on?

600 bucks seems like a bargain to me. What else is in the same neighborhood?
For 90% street driving and nothing serious, just get the factory Bilsteins used from someone for sub $200 and get some FM springs, and get the RB front sway bar and call it a day.

*ninja edit* you need some real rubber as well, no matter how responsive your suspension is, how stiff or soft, if your tires suck *****, so will your handling...get real rubber, I know it's expensive, but it's what makes the biggest difference.

Last edited by Zabac; 06-11-2008 at 11:14 AM. Reason: rubber
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:12 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by tvalenziano View Post
From what I've seen, Illuminas look like they offer alot esp for the price (380 ebay)

However, reading the "list ur setup" thread, doesnt seem like many people are going for them... dunno y tho?
I would rather buy 100K mile used OEM bilsteins than new Illuminas, I just don't like them...

For what Sam seems to want, he'd be best of on the Bilsteins and slightly lower slightly stiffer springs. He could do it for less than $250 i bet, if he bought smart and cheap, he jew, so no worries there.
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