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Old 02-07-2009, 04:57 PM   #1
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Default Clutch Master/Slave suggests

Pedal will only disengage the clutch a second, then loses pressure and cant keep clutch disengaged.

Less than 5k miles on clutch, no hard launches, etc..

Fluid is suddenly nasty, but was changed less than 5k miles ago

Dont see a leak, resv is full

Have ss clutch line from Avanced


Did some brief searching, and was wondering on thoughts of these:

miata master cylinder, eBay Motors, Transmission Drivetrain items on eBay.com

Seem to be decent, but are alot less expensive than say finishlineperformance = http://www.finishlineperformance.com...me.php?cat=320

Anyone have experience? Any feedback/advice?
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Old 02-08-2009, 12:39 AM   #2
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Ok, I'm gonna break it down for you. I've done this once before, and searched forever so I could just copy/paste this, but I couldn't find it. So here ya go.

If you do this, it will be fixed, perfect, right, and trouble free for years. Don't skip steps. Don't get in a hurry.

Go to Autozone and buy a rebuild kit for the slave and master cylinders. It's like 15 bucks for both rebuild kits. Buy a big bottle of brake fluid and a bench bleed kit too. Will be like $35 out the door.

Go back home and rebuild the master and slave. It's stupid simple to do. Pull them both apart and make sure they're nice and clean inside. If either has any light rust, see if it polishes out. If it's pitted, you'll need to hone it with a tool you don't have or buy a new one. Odds are they'll clean up fine. Install new stuff and reassemble.

Use compressed air to blow out the clutch line that connects the master to the slave. Pour clean fluid in it and shoot it through with compressed air till the fluid coming out is clean. Do it a couple more times for good measure. Using dry air is critical or you'll be putting moisture in the line which is a no no. Also clean out the clutch fluid reservoir while you're at it.

Now install the new slave. Now you gotta bench bleed the master cylinder. Here's a link on how to do it: How To Bench Bleed A Master Cylinder
That link's for a brake master cylinder, but the procedure is the same. Take your time doing this. Most people get in a hurry and don't get all the air out. Getting every last tiny bubble out makes all the difference in pedal feel. When you think you've got it all out, start over and do it again. I guarantee you'll see a spec more air come out.

Now go install the new master cylinder. Hook the line up to the reservoir. Now you gotta bleed the system. Do NOT let the master get very low. If you do, it will suck air and you'll have to remove it and bench bleed it again. Bleed it till you're 100% sure you have all the air out. Then do it a few more times. I highly recommend a hand operated vacuum pump for bleeding the clutch. It makes this a 5 minute job and it works so well. Works on brakes too. Something like this: Hand Vacuum Pump - More Categories - Compare Prices, Reviews and Buy at NexTag - Price - Review

Drive it and see how it works. Now would be a great time to adjust the pedal height to as outlined here: Adjusting the Clutch

Now you have a new, properly adjusted clutch system. No more messing with it for years to come.

Seriously, can this get a sticky? Nobody seems to know how to do a clutch system right and all the info is scattered to say the least.
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Old 02-08-2009, 01:35 AM   #3
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Gotta disagree with Pat here. Rebuilidng the clutch slave is a waste of time. A new slave is like $50, and instead of dicking with rebuilding, or honing it, or worrying about a tiny piece of grit scoring the bore and re-******* you, you can just plug it in, bleed it, and you're done.

I bought a brand-new OEM slave when I bought my car 30k ago and I've had no issues with my clutch since then.
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Old 02-08-2009, 01:50 AM   #4
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Waste of time my ***. There's like 3 pieces to a slave. A bore, a cylinder, and a $0.10 O-ring. The O-ring wears out after 100k miles. The rebuild kit comes with a new piston and O-ring. If the factory bore is perfect, it's perfect. You can not make it any better and buying a new one is not going to improve the part further. They don't wear. Besides, even if you buy a new one, you should still disassemble it and verify it's done correctly. I've seen more than one new slave and master that were bad from the factory. Rebuilding is not a waste of time at all. It's called peace of mind knowing your **** is right. Nothing tells you something is right than doing it yourself, step by step, and KNOWING it's right. I've never rebuilt a slave or master and had a problem with it. You must speak from inexperience.
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Old 02-08-2009, 02:29 AM   #5
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No, I speak from plenty of folks who have rebuilt them only to have it fail again 10-15k later. You can save $35 and risk getting stranded again, or you can just replace the entire unit and not worry about it.

That's the difference between street mentality and track mentality. I have no qualms about spending a little extra money for ease of installation and long-term reliability.
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Old 02-08-2009, 12:37 PM   #6
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it doesn't matter what you buy. new OEM, rebuilt, new auto parts store brand, they all work as long as they work.

i say get the rebuild kits first and if it doesn't work, get the OEM slave/master.
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Old 02-08-2009, 01:06 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
it doesn't matter what you buy. new OEM, rebuilt, new auto parts store brand, they all work as long as they work.

i say get the rebuild kits first and if it doesn't work, get the OEM slave/master.


Thats what I was looking for, wanting to make sure its not one of the "must be oem or its crap" things

Pat, appreciate the advice, but if you look at the search I posted some are $50-$60 shipped for brand new Master & Slave. Why wouldnt one want the peace of mind to know that all parts are brand new for the difference of $20-$25?
The install tips I will follow to the T, even if I get the brand new parts. Just saying it seems a like cutting corners not to get new parts to save $20ish.
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Old 02-08-2009, 01:10 PM   #8
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^actually its like $23 for the master kit, and $11 for the slave kit...so $44+tax

^ebay has more than 1 vendor selling both cylinders (not kit) for $50 shipped & $50+shipping

So now we're talking just a couple dollars....still same sentiments?
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Old 02-08-2009, 01:21 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvalenziano View Post
Thats what I was looking for, wanting to make sure its not one of the "must be oem or its crap" things

Pat, appreciate the advice, but if you look at the search I posted some are $50-$60 shipped for brand new Master & Slave. Why wouldnt one want the peace of mind to know that all parts are brand new for the difference of $20-$25?
The install tips I will follow to the T, even if I get the brand new parts. Just saying it seems a like cutting corners not to get new parts to save $20ish.
It's not cutting corners. I promise. If, for example, your old slave's bore measures 0.750" and is perfectly smoother, good surface finish, no rust, no scratches, etc etc, then what is replacing it gonna do? Not a DAMN thing. You guys sound like "My valve cover is leaking, so why not just replace? Changing just the gasket is cutting corners." Seriously. Grandfather owned his own hydraulic shop for 45 years. I'm no expert with hydralics, but I've been around them enough and rebuilt enough rams, valve bodies, pumps, cleaned systems, etc to know what makes a system reliable. Unless you buy an OEM slave and master, odds are your factory parts are gonna be closer to spec and have a better surface finish than some knock-off.

Sav says he knows somebody that's fucked it up. Ok, so I do I. That's why I posted a complete procedure. Sav, think about it for a second. WHY do you think a slave cylinder fails in the first place? Because something damages the O-ring. That something can be contamination, or rust formed on the cylinder and scratched the O-ring. If this happens, the system is not clean. Changing just the slave, be it new or rebuilt doesn't fix the problem of contamination. Have you ever rebuilt a slave cylinder?

Besides, I would have more peace of mind rebuilding mine and knowing it's now PERFECT and assembled correctly rather than buying one off a shelf and ASSuming it was machined well, on size, cleaned, lubricated to prevent rust and for assembly so that the O-ring isn't damaged when they stick it together. Bare minimum you should pull apart the new one and insure it was done correctly. Or for 10 bucks and 5 minutes you can rebuild you old one.

You guys do whatever you want. But saying a rebuilt one is inferior to a new one is bullshit. If you did it before and it failed it's because you didn't know what you were doing, in which case it would have failed regardless of it being a new or rebuilt unit.
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Old 02-08-2009, 01:27 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvalenziano View Post
Thats what I was looking for, wanting to make sure its not one of the "must be oem or its crap" things

Pat, appreciate the advice, but if you look at the search I posted some are $50-$60 shipped for brand new Master & Slave. Why wouldnt one want the peace of mind to know that all parts are brand new for the difference of $20-$25?
The install tips I will follow to the T, even if I get the brand new parts. Just saying it seems a like cutting corners not to get new parts to save $20ish.
my point was:

THERE IS NO PEACE OF MIND

when it comes to the clutch slave.

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Old 02-08-2009, 10:46 PM   #11
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Pat, couple questions...

1- about checking the cylinders. by polishing out any rust, can this be done with a simple brillo/fine sandpaper? I dont have anything small enough to hone it with if its pitted, chances of this are not likely right?

2- based on that article you linked bout bench bleeding; says it can be done without a bleeder. They just run the tube into the resvoir and keep it submerged while manually pushing the piston till its bled. Thats actually what the article explains, so should be fine for what i'm doing too right?

3- if i got a "helper", no need for vacuum pump right? Just makes life easier, or is it superior in terms of bleeding the system properly vs just stomping on the pedal?

4- ANYTHING you can think of that you're leaving out? Assume nothing please... lube for the slave piston, follow exact order you posted, etc..

Depending on the answers I'm now leaning towards this. I figure I'll take apart the slave/master before i open the rebuild kits. Worse case if they are beyond salvagable i can return the rebuild kits and but new one's. Car is parked now anyway due to this issue..day or two more wont hurt.

I just want to be certain I dont **** it up in any way while attempting to do this. I know it's a fairly simple thing, but assume nothing so that I dont leave something very dumb out and ruin the whole thing...
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Old 02-08-2009, 11:40 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvalenziano View Post
Pat, couple questions...

1- about checking the cylinders. by polishing out any rust, can this be done with a simple brillo/fine sandpaper? I dont have anything small enough to hone it with if its pitted, chances of this are not likely right?

2- based on that article you linked bout bench bleeding; says it can be done without a bleeder. They just run the tube into the resvoir and keep it submerged while manually pushing the piston till its bled. Thats actually what the article explains, so should be fine for what i'm doing too right?

3- if i got a "helper", no need for vacuum pump right? Just makes life easier, or is it superior in terms of bleeding the system properly vs just stomping on the pedal?

4- ANYTHING you can think of that you're leaving out? Assume nothing please... lube for the slave piston, follow exact order you posted, etc..

Depending on the answers I'm now leaning towards this. I figure I'll take apart the slave/master before i open the rebuild kits. Worse case if they are beyond salvagable i can return the rebuild kits and but new one's. Car is parked now anyway due to this issue..day or two more wont hurt.

I just want to be certain I dont **** it up in any way while attempting to do this. I know it's a fairly simple thing, but assume nothing so that I dont leave something very dumb out and ruin the whole thing...
Odds are the cylinder will be fine. In a hydraulic system, any water that forms will sink to the bottom. In this case, to the bottom of the slave. So if there's any rust, it will be on the very bottom of the slave cylinder. If there is light rust (surface rust, not really pitted), it will polish out. Something like 2K grit sand paper will work fine. Or a brake cylinder hone like this: KD Tools Economy Brake and Engine Cylinder Hone Set - Model KDS3029 at Sears.com

That set will go down to 1/2", so that should work to hone both. That will make the cylinders PERFECT.

As for detail stuff, keep everything clean and dry and use brake fluid to lube everything during assembly. I've seen some new cylinders that are assembled dry. Bad because they will rust sitting on the shelf and assembling them dry can damage the o-ring.

And get a hand held vac pump. It will work better than having a helper, and I swear, it's soooo nice to have. It's like using a socket and ratchet vs. a wrench. You don't use the hand pump for blench bleeding the master. The procedure for doing that I posted is correct. The vac pump is to aid in bleeding the system after final assembly of the master (that you already bench bled) and slave.
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Old 02-08-2009, 11:43 PM   #13
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Ok, u got me..

I'll be pulling the master/slave in the next day or so and check them out. Then start accumilating the misc stuff needed.

Will report back for help/results...


edit:
will this hone work? 3/4" to 2.5"

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=97163

AND

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=92474

anything wrong with this vacuum bleeder/pump?

Yes i'm tryign to save a buck where i can now that cost is adding up...

Last edited by TonyV; 02-08-2009 at 11:58 PM.
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Old 02-09-2009, 08:33 PM   #14
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I picked up a slave and master kit on ebay brand new for $40 and installed them, work great. I'd go that way.
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Old 02-09-2009, 09:19 PM   #15
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+1 for rebuilding..
Took me less than an hour, cost a total of seven bucks.
Havent had a problem since, close to a year now.
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Old 02-25-2009, 01:53 AM   #16
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Well, just to give my own experience and bring the thread to conclusion...

Rebuilding was a total failure for me. I couldn't narrow it down as to whether it was ME (can't rule it out) or the parts, but I had NO pressure once I completed the work and bled thru 3 32oz bottles of fluid

I then bit the bullet and purchased new units, total was like $80 and can be found cheaper online

In just over 2hrs I was driving my car.

I won't ever bother with a rebuild kit if/when this problem occurs the next time.

-once you factor in the total cost for rebuild (tools, parts, etc) you end up saving like $30 (less if you order the new units online)
-the parts in the rebuild kit are pretty poor IMO (ie: plastic vs oem steel piston for MC)
-the new parts come with lifetime warranty
-the new parts seemed to be = oem if not better


I do think success can be had by rebuilding, and i thank everyone for their input and advice. But for me, it just didn't work out. Again I unfortunately couldn't figure out why the rebuild units didn't work, so I'm leaving myself as a possible cause. But it's pretty damn easy to build both cylinders, and I took the units apart after all was said and done and found no issues.
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Old 02-25-2009, 02:21 AM   #17
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