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Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain discuss the wondrous effects of boost and your miata...

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Old 02-12-2009, 02:09 PM   #41
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1st day at the track with 264/257 I shattered the 5 speed rolling into 2nd gear.

I then broke another 5 speed rolling into second on the street behind my house with about 290/270.

I just took my usual run around the neigborhood before lodaing it onto the trailer for the track the next day.

Both transmissions would not go into anygear, and if they did, they didnt move. They just sounded like a few wrenches flying around in side..

The transmissions suck. Its pretty simple.
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Old 02-12-2009, 02:25 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by hustler View Post
Keith Verges is putting down 230whp "for reliability." Everyone blows them up at 250whp. He's had trans death, talk to him about it...I did.
List of people I know who've blown up transmissions at 220whp+ in dallas:
Gary S
Mike (silver miata)
Cliff (black miata)
Keith Verges' buddy with the yellow car
the ATS car
I confirmed this with Keith. He has broken one 5-spd in 5 yrs on his turbo cars. The one he is running now has been getting abused for 3+yrs and no issues. That is one 5-spd in 7 SM-T cars that have had a tranny failure. These are track-only cars, maybe that is why they don't fail very often?

I'm starting to wonder if proper maintenance of 5-spds are the issue, not the tranny itself. Who was running crap tranny fluid when it blew? Who was running Redline? Who was running Motul? I know Keith runs Redline, my car, and the other Miata that I have been referring to that a previous employee built, have Motul.
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Old 02-12-2009, 02:39 PM   #43
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I was running redline shockproof HD in my trans.

I changed the fluid every other event. Along with my diff fluids.
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Old 02-12-2009, 02:50 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by ray_sir_6 View Post
I'm starting to wonder if proper maintenance of 5-spds are the issue, not the tranny itself. Who was running crap tranny fluid when it blew? Who was running Redline? Who was running Motul? I know Keith runs Redline, my car, and the other Miata that I have been referring to that a previous employee built, have Motul.
Redline MT-90 in my 5-speed when it **** the bed.
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Old 02-12-2009, 07:10 PM   #45
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ray sir,
you're taking a stupid position. the 5 speed isn't reliable for what we do. at least half the people local to me with turbo 5 spd miatas have broken at least 1 transmission.

period. end of line. end of story. stop being a douche.
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Old 02-12-2009, 07:46 PM   #46
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Should I just get back in line with the other sheep?



Yet people still manage to make lots of power, and beat the living hell out of them and they don't break. Maybe track-only 5-spd cars are immune to the problem? Most people I talk with predominantly race their Miatas, with a few street/track people as well.

Can you tell me how full track cars running FMII w/ Hydra have logged hundreds (thousands?) of track hours over 5 yrs, with a SINGLE failure of a 5-spd? These are SPEC cars running Hoosiers, R888s, and RA-1s. These cars run 4hr, 8hr, and more, enduro events, yet survive. How is that possible? How is this "weak tranny" holding up to such abuse?

Why is the 1.8l rear not listed as a "must replace to make power" when I have seen them fail twice on the same car in a single 25hr event? This is on a SM car, no turbo, just 120whp NA fury.

Racing is always harder on a car than street driving. So if it stands up to racing, why are the street guys having issues? Is it driving skill issues? Maintenance issues? Too much DIY tranny work? Seriously, I'm am really curious what is causing it.
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Old 02-12-2009, 08:39 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray_sir_6 View Post

Why is the 1.8l rear not listed as a "must replace to make power" when I have seen them fail twice on the same car in a single 25hr event? This is on a SM car, no turbo, just 120whp NA fury.

It is! Particularly for drag racers the torsen doesn't take hard launches well. That's why you also see a thread here recently about doing a 7.5" ford swap. The Torsen can be replaced with the RX7 clutch lsd which is stronger. For even higher hp cars the swap to the larger RX7 turbo rear end is common.

Seriously. There is simply too much evidence against your position that the 5spd is perfectly adequate at 250+hp. I'm running 240hp with a 5 spd and have had no problems. It doesn't mean I won't have trouble though. It is a known weak spot in the cars. Do all of them break. Absolutely Not. Do enough break that it should be a concern? Absolutely yes.
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Old 02-12-2009, 09:28 PM   #48
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Your personal experiences and the personal experiences of your six friends are not the end-all be-all authority on this. Why that doesn't register with you is beyond me. Just because you know of a bunch of people who have broken them doesn't mean that there aren't a bunch MORE people who have. When there are dozens of cases of broken 5-speeds under 250whp, saying that they are reliable at 350whp is simply ridiculous, regardless of what you have personally seen.

I blew my Torsen up about 9 months ago (wheelhop). Do I go spouting off everywhere that they are "totally unreliable at 220whp?" No. My failure was an anomaly. I know at least one, maybe two other people who have broken them. Does this suddenly mean they are unreliable at 220-250whp? No. The vast majority of people with turbo cars and Torsens have had no issues with them, and so that is the position I take, even though my personal experience has been different.

You don't need to fall back in line with the other sheep, but your position is outrageous and you do need to listen to reason here. The 5-speed has more than just a couple documented failures, and just because you PERSONALLY have never seen one doesn't mean there aren't a lot of them out there.

If you want to continue down your warpath, go right ahead. You're not convincing anyone of anything here, and you certainly aren't making any friends either.
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Old 02-12-2009, 09:58 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
I'm not arguing with people who can't do basic math.
QFT.

He was right beside ole' JC-rotor dude that came here spouting how his 11:1 compression motor was gonna make huge amounts more power than anything with lesser comp. When JC gave up raysir6 stepped in and spouted off the same ****, and incorrectly used some math form garrett to "prove" he was right. Everybody said he was wrong but he insisted that he was correct. Yet from a physics standpoint, his argument didn't hold water. Neither from a thermodynamics standpoint. But he wouldn't listen, and had no REAL PROOF OR REASON to support his statement other than some math from garret he failed at using multiple times.

Then he dissed the megasquirt insisting that somehow an AEM ecu makes more HP just because it's an AEM. But once again, no REAL PROOF OR REASON why. Just that he was right, and that everybody else was wrong. Again, AFR's are AFR's, total timing is total timing, yet he insisted the AEM would still make substantially more power. But no proof or reasons why. Just because.

Now he's spouting off about 5 speeds being "good" for 350whp. Raysir6, **** off. You don't know what you are talking about. I can tell you what breaks the transmission. It's the same thing that breaks the R&P, diff, or axles. Shock loads. Axial stresses, torsional stresses, shear stresses, etc. The causes are numerous. If you can collectively control shock loads to a safe level then you increase durability. You're in the minority, so prove that you're right. And this time don't **** up your numbers every time.

Again, I DARE YOU to put together a logical argument as to why you are correct and support it with REASON (you know, facts, physics, loads causing deformation, etc). If you have no reason to support your argument, then you have no argument.
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Old 02-12-2009, 10:01 PM   #50
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In the good old days, Philip would have just banned him and we could all get on with our lives.
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Old 02-12-2009, 11:47 PM   #51
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what broke on your Torsen?
what part exactly
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Old 02-12-2009, 11:48 PM   #52
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Arguments that go nowhere and don't listen to reason? Is that you, Peter?

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Old 02-13-2009, 12:03 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robino View Post
what broke on your Torsen?
what part exactly
I split a small gear (spider gear?) in the Torsen unit itself.

There should be two of them (preferably not damaged, like these are):
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not one of them, like this one:
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That caused the diff to lock up nice and tight, which caused the unit to jump out of the third member:
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...and then the ring gear hit the aluminum housing and cracked it.
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This is not a normal failure, though. The only guys who break Torsens are drag-racing them, and they aren't known for their ability to take serious launches. This happened during a 7000rpm clutchdump, and I had serious wheelhop the previous run as well as during the burnout right before. Stay away from wheelhop and they are fine.
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Old 02-13-2009, 12:39 AM   #54
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I destroyed 2 5spd transmissions with about ~200hp. One of them let go while simply rolling into the throttle in 4th gear.

Yeat, I had a 5spd in my 99 that took a royal BEATING between drag racing and ********....60,000mi+ worth and never had a problem.
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Old 02-13-2009, 01:06 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kotomile View Post
Arguments that go nowhere and don't listen to reason? Is that you, Peter?

I hope you pulled this out on the peter pan reroute guy

Thats some great carnage sav.

Its all about the wheel hop when it comes to rear end. Those torsens should hold anything you throw at them. Get rid of the wheel hop and rear end exploding problem goes away. Up your RPM, throw in a big cam, and the over torque on the transmission goes away. Just gotta stop loving torque thats all. 10000 RPM is good for the tranny, but then your hood needs kevlar to keep the pistons in the engine bay. Just gotta get it all Buddha'd out that's all.
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Old 02-13-2009, 01:13 AM   #56
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I think thread question has been answered. The general opinion is that 5 speeds are not too good over 250whp. Select few can argue like dumbasses but it will result in nothing. Just because you've personally seen a few not break at a certain power level doesnt help much. I'd rather listen to everyone's advise and stay safe than to Ray and his opinion and run a much bigger risk of blowing up.

Now just install the 6 speed and report back..that will help us better
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Old 02-13-2009, 01:51 AM   #57
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Thats some great carnage sav.
Yeah, I was thrilled. 100% writeoff of an $800 diff.
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Old 02-13-2009, 01:56 AM   #58
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OMFG Raysir6 dude just stfu our **** is weak we need it strong if your weak **** is holding up for alilwhile longer great. My weak *** 5 speed is to but its just a question of when at the power lvls past 250 its simple physics the cases flexx the gears strip and we are left stranded cause our uber trannys ran outa uberness. U call us sheep but u dont preach inovation or a new way u show lazyness and complacency. U tout whatever u have as awesome to boost your selfesteem. I might have one of the ugliest cars here and a shitty *** MS but i have seen what works and exp what it is like to do real new ****. Why dont u go lurk on club raodster or something. They might have a new tanoue cover for u.
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Old 02-13-2009, 02:09 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Your personal experiences and the personal experiences of your six friends are not the end-all be-all authority on this. Why that doesn't register with you is beyond me. Just because you know of a bunch of people who have broken them doesn't mean that there aren't a bunch MORE people who have. When there are dozens of cases of broken 5-speeds under 250whp, saying that they are reliable at 350whp is simply ridiculous, regardless of what you have personally seen.

I blew my Torsen up about 9 months ago (wheelhop). Do I go spouting off everywhere that they are "totally unreliable at 220whp?" No. My failure was an anomaly. I know at least one, maybe two other people who have broken them. Does this suddenly mean they are unreliable at 220-250whp? No. The vast majority of people with turbo cars and Torsens have had no issues with them, and so that is the position I take, even though my personal experience has been different.

You don't need to fall back in line with the other sheep, but your position is outrageous and you do need to listen to reason here. The 5-speed has more than just a couple documented failures, and just because you PERSONALLY have never seen one doesn't mean there aren't a lot of them out there.

If you want to continue down your warpath, go right ahead. You're not convincing anyone of anything here, and you certainly aren't making any friends either.
Well I have seen far more rear end failures than I have seen tranny failures. This is mostly on SPEC MIATAS, not power hungry turbo cars. Where do cars get the most abuse? ON THE TRACK. So how is a part I see break OFTEN considered reliable for the most part, yet a tranny, which I have never personally seen, and have only one report of failure from several race team sources, weak? Go to ANY SM team, what do they carry more of for spare parts, trannies or rears? If anyone even has a tranny in their trailer it's a miracle, yet all bring a few rears. Sorry, but just cause some people have broken their tranny doesn't mean jack squat, same as you've determined me knowing some people who haven't broken them doesn't mean squat.

I'm not here to make "online friends". I'm here to make sure what info is posted here as a guide to others is TRUE. If I'm wrong, so be it, never had a problem with being wrong. But just as I have to prove I'm right, so do you you. I don't fold under "group pressure". Till someone comes in and says, "Given the metal quality in the gearing on the 1-3 stack, the largest stress loads that the gear teeth can withstand is blah blah, so therefore the limit for that gear is 270lb/ft continual, and blah blah shock load." you have exactly what I have, some people who have or have not broken a tranny, and whatever opinion you have gained from it.
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Old 02-13-2009, 02:12 AM   #60
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So far I got 5 "survivors" and 1 busted tranny on M.Net. These are just the numbers, obviously I can't put an opinion on those. Please say I can't do the math or I am swaying the numbers to support my side. I wouldn't expect any less.
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