Shock Tech, 101
#261
On the Miata I am on Megan Racing shocks, that I find have too much compression and too little rebound on the same settings, so regardless at what setting they are at, there is a compromise. This is when I started appreciating that my Buddy Club RSDs were rebound only adjustable. My RSX with RSDs 10/16k vs my coworker's RSX on Megans with 10/14k rides like two different cars. Especially when he has fatty 205/55-16" tires compared to my 255/40-17", the ride difference is astounding. I think I can safely assume one brand is better, at least for this application. In that same respect, I know more RSXs using Buddy Club RSDs on the track than TEIN FLEX users-- for a reason. Then if you look at the Miata, the TEIN FLEX is more respected and seen more often at the track.
To many of you, these brands are on the low-budget side of things, and I can't argue with you. They are a compromise... but they still are shocks.
#262
i think the shock compromise (dual duty) situation has to be looked at in extreme situations to become clear.
The perfect shock would be tuned for a specific situation. i.e. Those that race would ideally have a set of shocks specific to the track that they are racing. For most, this is cost prohibitive. Already, in this situation they are compromising. This is one extreme. The other extreme is for supreme comfort. Even for comfort there is a compromise because it is not going to be perfect on all road conditions( large pot holes, etc), but it can probably be dialed in for 95% of them.
Now we have our two extremes. I'm going to put them together.
I'm going to use a nascar. At Lowes motor speedway I have witnessed cars going 180 mph. Imagine how stiff the shock and spring setup must be to compensate for the down force being applied and remain stable at 180mph in turns.
Now, how comfortable do you think this car is going to be driving around town??? The suspension probably won't budge over any of the mild bumps that are experienced on a dd commute.
As our use of the vehicle moves closer to the center of these two extremes; The closer the appearence of a "dual duty" shock becomes a reality.
Just because someone can tolerate a harsh/plush ride, doesn't mean the shock is "dual duty". It just means they are able to deal with the compromise.
"Dual duty" shocks are created in the individuals head, not the shock.
I'm stopping now. I don't know if I'm making sense anymore.
The perfect shock would be tuned for a specific situation. i.e. Those that race would ideally have a set of shocks specific to the track that they are racing. For most, this is cost prohibitive. Already, in this situation they are compromising. This is one extreme. The other extreme is for supreme comfort. Even for comfort there is a compromise because it is not going to be perfect on all road conditions( large pot holes, etc), but it can probably be dialed in for 95% of them.
Now we have our two extremes. I'm going to put them together.
I'm going to use a nascar. At Lowes motor speedway I have witnessed cars going 180 mph. Imagine how stiff the shock and spring setup must be to compensate for the down force being applied and remain stable at 180mph in turns.
Now, how comfortable do you think this car is going to be driving around town??? The suspension probably won't budge over any of the mild bumps that are experienced on a dd commute.
As our use of the vehicle moves closer to the center of these two extremes; The closer the appearence of a "dual duty" shock becomes a reality.
Just because someone can tolerate a harsh/plush ride, doesn't mean the shock is "dual duty". It just means they are able to deal with the compromise.
"Dual duty" shocks are created in the individuals head, not the shock.
I'm stopping now. I don't know if I'm making sense anymore.
#264
I have a 2000 LS with the original Showas, 125,000 miles. I just bought the car for my son to drive and to attend the occasional autocross. We are autocrossing for fun, but winning is fun too! For a car mostly street driven, would I be better off with stock springs and big sway bars? Are used NB Bilsteins a good choice for stock springs?
I spent the last several hours reading this thread (and watching football). I learned a lot from this thread, and I appreciate everyone's input.
#265
But can't you add bigger sway bars to reduce the roll? How does less rebound damping affect handling on an autocross track?
I have a 2000 LS with the original Showas, 125,000 miles. I just bought the car for my son to drive and to attend the occasional autocross. We are autocrossing for fun, but winning is fun too! For a car mostly street driven, would I be better off with stock springs and big sway bars? Are used NB Bilsteins a good choice for stock springs?
I spent the last several hours reading this thread (and watching football). I learned a lot from this thread, and I appreciate everyone's input.
I have a 2000 LS with the original Showas, 125,000 miles. I just bought the car for my son to drive and to attend the occasional autocross. We are autocrossing for fun, but winning is fun too! For a car mostly street driven, would I be better off with stock springs and big sway bars? Are used NB Bilsteins a good choice for stock springs?
I spent the last several hours reading this thread (and watching football). I learned a lot from this thread, and I appreciate everyone's input.
After that, then ask for advice. Figure out where your focus is, how much you want to spend, then decide where to go from there... otherwise we and you would just be shooting in the dark.
#266
Street comfort is more important than winning. I'm not going to spend $$$$ to go fast. I've been there and done that. Just trying to get by without spending much money. From what I've read, used Bilsteins are better than new GR2's. And they could be re-valved if I get the itch. But right now I'm trying to keep costs down.
#267
Street comfort is more important than winning. I'm not going to spend $$$$ to go fast. I've been there and done that. Just trying to get by without spending much money. From what I've read, used Bilsteins are better than new GR2's. And they could be re-valved if I get the itch. But right now I'm trying to keep costs down.
Sounds more like you're doing maitenence... and that you would be best served by making your own thread instead of turning "Shock Tech 101" into "What shock should I buy for my car." It's rather hijacking.
#268
Street comfort is more important than winning. I'm not going to spend $$$$ to go fast. I've been there and done that. Just trying to get by without spending much money. From what I've read, used Bilsteins are better than new GR2's. And they could be re-valved if I get the itch. But right now I'm trying to keep costs down.
The cheap combo would be to find used Bilstein R's. HD's lack low speed rebound which isn't ideal for AX.
#274
Bernie, I used Penskes on a Panoz GTRA that I owned up until recently and was very happy with them. They were valved by a guy named Brian Finney on Merritt Island, FL. Circle track guy. I set them up in the middle of their adjustment and was very happy with the car. Particularly at Sebring, which is where we normally run.
Prior to going to the Penskes, I was running the "stock" Konis that come on the GTRA cars. Toward the end of a 30 minute session you could really feel the car going away, almost like the tires were overheating. But that wasn't the case, the shocks were going away as we found the Konis fell off pretty rapidly on the dyno. Once the Penskes were on, the car was consistent throughout the session.
Is the design of the Bilsteins such that I could expect a similar level of performance to what I experienced from the Penskes, ie. not going away? I can't help but feel I got a little lucky with what Brian did to the Penskes given that he knows Sebring.
Another note, we found the cars ran better without a rear bar (ran front bar). Taking the rear bar off and doing it with the spring helped the car hook up much better. I'm thinking of trying something similar on the Miata. The car is new to me so we'll see.
Thanks,
Jim
Prior to going to the Penskes, I was running the "stock" Konis that come on the GTRA cars. Toward the end of a 30 minute session you could really feel the car going away, almost like the tires were overheating. But that wasn't the case, the shocks were going away as we found the Konis fell off pretty rapidly on the dyno. Once the Penskes were on, the car was consistent throughout the session.
Is the design of the Bilsteins such that I could expect a similar level of performance to what I experienced from the Penskes, ie. not going away? I can't help but feel I got a little lucky with what Brian did to the Penskes given that he knows Sebring.
Another note, we found the cars ran better without a rear bar (ran front bar). Taking the rear bar off and doing it with the spring helped the car hook up much better. I'm thinking of trying something similar on the Miata. The car is new to me so we'll see.
Thanks,
Jim