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Old 11-23-2010, 08:57 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Thucydides View Post
Don't be so defensive, greeentreee, and re-read my post. Have you been so beat down on this thread that you can't even tell when someone's supporting your position?
Perhaps. I'll tell you all right now, i have first-hand experience with TEIN SS (valved exactly the same as the FLEX for the same application), JIC FLT-A2, and finally Buddy Club Racing Spec Dampers on my other car. An Acura RSX, McPherson struts up front w/ trailing arms in the rear, horrible (I think it was 1.5 to 2:1) rear motion ratios, which explains the 16k rear spring rates. Track tested all of them aside from the TEIN SS at Streets of Willow, CA and the car has seen all sorts of revisions to the track. The wide section after the back straight going CW? It used to be a chicane back in 06-07. Now it is wide open.

On the Miata I am on Megan Racing shocks, that I find have too much compression and too little rebound on the same settings, so regardless at what setting they are at, there is a compromise. This is when I started appreciating that my Buddy Club RSDs were rebound only adjustable. My RSX with RSDs 10/16k vs my coworker's RSX on Megans with 10/14k rides like two different cars. Especially when he has fatty 205/55-16" tires compared to my 255/40-17", the ride difference is astounding. I think I can safely assume one brand is better, at least for this application. In that same respect, I know more RSXs using Buddy Club RSDs on the track than TEIN FLEX users-- for a reason. Then if you look at the Miata, the TEIN FLEX is more respected and seen more often at the track.

To many of you, these brands are on the low-budget side of things, and I can't argue with you. They are a compromise... but they still are shocks.
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Old 11-23-2010, 10:10 PM   #262
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i think the shock compromise (dual duty) situation has to be looked at in extreme situations to become clear.

The perfect shock would be tuned for a specific situation. i.e. Those that race would ideally have a set of shocks specific to the track that they are racing. For most, this is cost prohibitive. Already, in this situation they are compromising. This is one extreme. The other extreme is for supreme comfort. Even for comfort there is a compromise because it is not going to be perfect on all road conditions( large pot holes, etc), but it can probably be dialed in for 95% of them.

Now we have our two extremes. I'm going to put them together.

I'm going to use a nascar. At Lowes motor speedway I have witnessed cars going 180 mph. Imagine how stiff the shock and spring setup must be to compensate for the down force being applied and remain stable at 180mph in turns.

Now, how comfortable do you think this car is going to be driving around town??? The suspension probably won't budge over any of the mild bumps that are experienced on a dd commute.

As our use of the vehicle moves closer to the center of these two extremes; The closer the appearence of a "dual duty" shock becomes a reality.

Just because someone can tolerate a harsh/plush ride, doesn't mean the shock is "dual duty". It just means they are able to deal with the compromise.

"Dual duty" shocks are created in the individuals head, not the shock.

I'm stopping now. I don't know if I'm making sense anymore.
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Old 11-24-2010, 05:30 AM   #263
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greeeenteeee, I explained why elsewhere in this thread. It's up to you which explanation to believe.
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Old 11-27-2010, 09:25 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Bernie S. View Post
A shock with less low speed damping is generally more compliant over rough surfaces and more comfortable for a DD, but you also get more roll out of the car.
But can't you add bigger sway bars to reduce the roll? How does less rebound damping affect handling on an autocross track?

I have a 2000 LS with the original Showas, 125,000 miles. I just bought the car for my son to drive and to attend the occasional autocross. We are autocrossing for fun, but winning is fun too! For a car mostly street driven, would I be better off with stock springs and big sway bars? Are used NB Bilsteins a good choice for stock springs?

I spent the last several hours reading this thread (and watching football). I learned a lot from this thread, and I appreciate everyone's input.
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Old 11-27-2010, 09:48 PM   #265
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But can't you add bigger sway bars to reduce the roll? How does less rebound damping affect handling on an autocross track?

I have a 2000 LS with the original Showas, 125,000 miles. I just bought the car for my son to drive and to attend the occasional autocross. We are autocrossing for fun, but winning is fun too! For a car mostly street driven, would I be better off with stock springs and big sway bars? Are used NB Bilsteins a good choice for stock springs?

I spent the last several hours reading this thread (and watching football). I learned a lot from this thread, and I appreciate everyone's input.
Before anything else you said matters, you need to decide how serious you are about winning, and what class you want to win. Also, seeing what you're up against locally would be wise.

After that, then ask for advice. Figure out where your focus is, how much you want to spend, then decide where to go from there... otherwise we and you would just be shooting in the dark.
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Old 11-27-2010, 10:43 PM   #266
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Street comfort is more important than winning. I'm not going to spend $$$$ to go fast. I've been there and done that. Just trying to get by without spending much money. From what I've read, used Bilsteins are better than new GR2's. And they could be re-valved if I get the itch. But right now I'm trying to keep costs down.
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Old 11-27-2010, 10:47 PM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 85Dave View Post
Street comfort is more important than winning. I'm not going to spend $$$$ to go fast. I've been there and done that. Just trying to get by without spending much money. From what I've read, used Bilsteins are better than new GR2's. And they could be re-valved if I get the itch. But right now I'm trying to keep costs down.
In that case, are you planning to keep the rest of your suspension stock? Just want to change shocks?

Sounds more like you're doing maitenence... and that you would be best served by making your own thread instead of turning "Shock Tech 101" into "What shock should I buy for my car." It's rather hijacking.
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Old 11-27-2010, 10:52 PM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 85Dave View Post
Street comfort is more important than winning. I'm not going to spend $$$$ to go fast. I've been there and done that. Just trying to get by without spending much money. From what I've read, used Bilsteins are better than new GR2's. And they could be re-valved if I get the itch. But right now I'm trying to keep costs down.

The cheap combo would be to find used Bilstein R's. HD's lack low speed rebound which isn't ideal for AX.
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Old 11-27-2010, 11:01 PM   #269
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The cheap combo would be to find used Bilstein R's. HD's lack low speed rebound which isn't ideal for AX.
For street comfort, the rpackage shocks want a spring in the 450ish rate, not stock. I'd recommend Illuminias, from what I've heard, but still... this is a hijack. Let's stop posting on this.
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Old 11-28-2010, 05:52 PM   #270
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What should be discussed next?

Are we ready to move on and take a shock apart to describe each part?
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Old 11-28-2010, 07:08 PM   #271
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What should be discussed next?

Are we ready to move on and take a shock apart to describe each part?
YES! Pictures and exploded views with lables and discriptions would be perfect.
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Old 11-28-2010, 07:36 PM   #272
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What should be discussed next?

Are we ready to move on and take a shock apart to describe each part?
Sure! Maybe you could explain how the bleed orifice is changed during a rebuild. And different ways a shim stack can be set up for different characteristics.
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Old 11-28-2010, 09:05 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Bernie S. View Post
What should be discussed next?

Are we ready to move on and take a shock apart to describe each part?
Hell yes, we are...

Maybe we should start with how not to kill yourself disassembling a Bilstein without a hyperbaric compression chamber.
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Old 11-28-2010, 11:44 PM   #274
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Bernie, I used Penskes on a Panoz GTRA that I owned up until recently and was very happy with them. They were valved by a guy named Brian Finney on Merritt Island, FL. Circle track guy. I set them up in the middle of their adjustment and was very happy with the car. Particularly at Sebring, which is where we normally run.

Prior to going to the Penskes, I was running the "stock" Konis that come on the GTRA cars. Toward the end of a 30 minute session you could really feel the car going away, almost like the tires were overheating. But that wasn't the case, the shocks were going away as we found the Konis fell off pretty rapidly on the dyno. Once the Penskes were on, the car was consistent throughout the session.

Is the design of the Bilsteins such that I could expect a similar level of performance to what I experienced from the Penskes, ie. not going away? I can't help but feel I got a little lucky with what Brian did to the Penskes given that he knows Sebring.

Another note, we found the cars ran better without a rear bar (ran front bar). Taking the rear bar off and doing it with the spring helped the car hook up much better. I'm thinking of trying something similar on the Miata. The car is new to me so we'll see.

Thanks,
Jim

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Old 11-29-2010, 12:10 AM   #275
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Oh, and yes, I would like to see what the inside of the Bilstein looks like. I've seen the shim stack used in the Penskes. Wondering how they are similar or different.
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Old 12-05-2010, 05:04 PM   #276
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Can a Bilstein be bottomed out and damaged internally?
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Old 12-05-2010, 05:05 PM   #277
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From what I've heard, the shaft on a Bilstein doesn't go far enough down to bottom out, it'll hit the top of the shock body first.
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Old 12-07-2010, 11:53 AM   #278
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I'd like to see some pictures of high quality race parts vs standard bilstein vs cheapo chinese crap.
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Old 12-07-2010, 12:12 PM   #279
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Here is a layout for a standard Bilstein build. Everything is in the order that it will go on the shaft.

Shock Tech, 101-bilstein-shim-layout.jpg
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Old 12-07-2010, 12:18 PM   #280
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Looking at the picture above, you will notice a notched shim. This is typical of how Bilstein achieves the bleed in their shocks.

The picture below shows how the notched shim sits on the piston. By changing the thickness of this shim you are able to change the amount of bleed.
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Shock Tech, 101-bleed-shim.jpg  
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