BFG Rival-S : Game changer
 

The new 200TW Rival-S and RE71R are faster than any 100TW R compound tires and likely faster wearing too. Only a little slower than R6's. Just got back from a SuperMiata and Miata Challenge weekend at Spring Mountain in NV, 3.14 mile config. Real eye opener. Took a few passengers out. A few were shocked when I told them we were on street tires. Yeah, 1.5g on street tires. Not a detailed or controlled test mind you, just doing some rough comparisons with a few controls. Same day, a good friend tested RE71R's against R6's that were .25" wider. I think the delta there was 1.5s, so closer to 1.1s on a typical 2.5mile circuit.

I don't know what NASA will do with them but for a short while, some enterprising PT/TT competitors can steal all the milkshakes.

This about 1.25hrs track time, 2350#, 160whp Miata, 3.14 mile road course, 75° ambient, 98° track temps

http://949racing.com/supermiata/Riva...20minutes.jpg?

That looks like a LOT of wear, particularly in that center section, for so little track time. Am I seeing that right?

How much more track time do you think they'd last at that current rate/pace/car?

what was the feedback like at the limit? the old ones felt numb to me...

Any tread splices?

Yup, lots wear IMO. With setup optimized for these tire on this particular day, I'd guess 2-3hrs total life. Old Rivals would probably go 4+ hrs under the same conditions.


Still dull. Somewhat better braking feedback

None observed

dang. the rs3's fit my driving style better because the feedback is better... but it's hard to argue with 1.5G

What tire pressures are you running in them Emilio?

Wow.
And to think how amazed I was by my regular 225 rivals this weekend at Gingerman, sustaining ~1.25 with peaks at 1.35.
Cant wait to wear these out...


Fingers crossed for a 225/45 RE71R?

The Rival S was designed for autocross, I'd expect it to be much like A6 vs R6 in terms of characteristics against the standard Rival. If that's the case, likely it's a 3-lap time attack tire for those classes that run 200tw. It will cause some upsets.

-Ryan

What's the original tread depth?

Well shit, I was days away from ordering these mounted on some wheels from Phil's for the wifes NB. . . Now I might reconsider. It's mostly a street/autox car and she is very much a track novice. Honestly I am still trying to talk her into taking my yr old rivals and giving me the new tires because I hate how my rivals feel.

Phil why don't you sell RS3's ?!

You got 1.5 hours out of them? Damn, I heard those normally cord in the UPS truck on your way to you, and if they dont the mounting machine brings them to the cords. :p

In all serousness, the rival-s are designed to be auto-x tires, and more specifically they're designed to work on a rubbered in lincoln air park.

Did they overheat easily?

I got 10 track days out of my old rivals- even if these last 1/2 as long it might be worth it since they are pretty much hoosier fast and you can drive to the track on them.

as long as the thread doesn't splice like the old ones.

In all seriousness there isn't supposed to be a street tire specifically designed for autox and definitely not one designed for rubbered up Lincoln. That totally defeats the intent of going to "street" tires in Solo to please all the whiny little bitches that kept arguing that Stock classes were too expensive because they had to have DOT R compounds and then have to tow or trailer the tires to events and then had to change them.

Of course they failed to mention that even after doing that the local hot shoe who couldn't even trophy at National Tours still put five seconds on them in the same car/class. But whatever, /rant.

One thing is for sure, these tire companies are pumping these things out at a quick pace of outdoing each other. And they are also reasonably priced, at least in narrower sizes like STX, STS. I can't believe the target audience is Solo. Seems like a lot of work to win over the "Special Olympic's" of auto racing.

Me, I'm just dreading the day that the SPAC declares 200twr tires mandatory. Seems like the only logical conclusion that all "Street" named classes will follow. What tire manufacturer in their right mind is going to make a 275/35/15. I guess the NC will reign CSP.

Sam I didnt realize you posted on miata boards, has Stranoparts started selling miata bits?

Yep, I can fit in Miatas now that 200twr street tires perform better than DOT R's!

Sammy

:bowrofl::rofl::bowrofl::rofl::bowrofl:

Had to prop that. Leafy?

Sorry I was having too much fun making fun of the sam strano esque anti-street tire rant.

I think he is referencing you into the "Special Olympic's" quote. Which by default, I fall into also. Tardo autoxer, yes I am.

Which is funny that anyone would make fun of a guy who is ingrained so deeply into Solo. I would take his opinion with a lot of weight (no pun intended, sorry Sammy!) as not only is he a great driver but is involved in the sport as a retailer, course designer, advisor, etc. More importantly, he has lived through the tire wars of before so he knows how the history can play out.

So yeah, lets discredit him and make fun of him. Especially since guys like you are so much more knowledgeable...... and such great drivers!;)

I am all for the wacky street-tire wars. I've been DDing the Rival S for the last couple of weeks. They are quiet on the highway like no other R-compound I've ever tried, they're probably at least halfway acceptable in the rain, and they are so sticky it makes my head spin. If I get 10k miles out of them, they will be the epitome of "max-performance street" IMO.

Not much of a comparison, but I have last years Rivals. I've been caught in a couple of rain storms and no issues with them getting rid of water on the streets. Can't say I know them in a wet race environment.

I will never get 10K out of any tire because -3.3* camber and 1/8" toe.

How much of that tire wear is because the tire is sticky and how much is because the tread is squirming so much that it's just grinding away?

I suspect that a shaved RivalS would wear much better.

The sticker tread depth on the Rival S is 7/32nd, and the tread blocks are ridiculously, extremely large (compared to something like the R1R). It doesn't seem like there's much squirming that the tread blocks can actually do.

If you are talking about tread squirm, but actually mean wear from large amounts of toe, then yeah, I'll buy that.

I have heard from more than one secondary source that the Rival S was born specifically in response to the Rival performing poorly at the Nationals, but perhaps that is just a rumor.

Does anyone have more light to shed on that?

-Ryan

They brought several tire compounds to test immediately after Nationals on the same course at Lincoln and took the best results from that to decide which to use. I am not saying that is their only input, but I know it played a significant part.

i did hear the story of a bunch of people jumping on the BFG bandwaggon before nationals, and they all got slaughtered.

That's all rumors and hearsay.

That part happened though. The OG Rival performed poorly on rubbered-up (hoosier) concrete at Lincoln. I can't remember if that was last year, or the first year for the rival. Either way, BFG actually did their testing on the practice course at nationals in 2014.

Well I eat my words. I guess BFG thinks win on Tuesday (or Thursday) sell on Friday?

Still doesn't make sense to me. And there may have been like 20 BFG entries at 14 Nats so this scenario must have been at 13 Nats and seems confined only to STR where some historically high placing drivers didn't do so well. Makes even less sense taking that into account.

No matter what these tires are exceptionally fast, regardless of how subjective the TWR may be. And I'm not accusing anyone of anything. Tire technology has been known to be revolutionary at times.

And they are at least streetable as they can tread water. I wonder how these compare to Hoosier wets?

Not being a competitive autocrosser, I'm not worried about the terrific wear rate of the RE71R and Rival-S. If I was though, on a budget and trying to keep up with the fast parking lot racers, I'd be pissed. That's an instant 4x to your annual tire budget. Defeats the purpose of restricting to "street" tires.

OTOH, I'm with Andrew, moar grips for my street car that I don't put many miles on. We still have the standard Rival and all of last years 200TW tires for HPDE's, driving to the track and less than nationally competitive autocross.

Assuming Rival-S shaved to 3/32, I configured a PTE/TTE NB on paper that would be about 1-1.5s faster than our previous 144whp points car on a 2:00 course. Like low 1:58's at Buttonwillow, 1:37's at Mid-O, 1:32's at WSIR, etc.

I hope some of the NASA crew here can snatch some lap records and a few contingencies before Greg makes the change. I could even see it staying as is until after East/West Coast championships. Beating all the cars on R7's with shaved street tires. Wouldn't that be funny ?

This is pretty much what a number of people predicted would happen with a treadwear rating "street tires only" rule. Supposedly the tire exclusion list is there for this purpose, we'll see if it gets used or not.

--Ian

I don't know how the hell you restrict this though without some major enforcement issues. They essentially passed the buck to the tire companies by creating the treadwear rating rule, and now its getting *predictably* abused.

Tamper seals on the wheels & tires and force teams competing for an entire season to use the same setup for x number of races? Of course that will give a nasty advantage to whoever is trailering cars\tires, but even in the street tire class I bet the competitive folks are anyway.

Independent testing of wear in actual autocross conditions?

Tire budgets?

They all seem like terrible options

No, its more of pushing the limit of whats possible for passing the DOT tests. A 200tw tire still has to last twice as long as the 100tw standard tire on the DOT test circuit in texas. If it lasts 3 times as long then it could be marked as a 300tw but would be ok to mark is as a 200tw for marketing reasons. But not 400tw. IE the original RS3 totally could have been a 300tw+ tire but all the fast tires were 140tw so thats what went on the sidewall.

Right, the test has zero applicability to the actual use of the tire. For racing, it would be more useful to define the traction curve as a function of distance traveled at the slip angles that generate maximum grip, not tooling around a test course. The treadwear metric has zero meaning for how "consumable" a tire is in competition. You can have a tire that only has a few heat cycles in it after which point it will last damn near forever (looking at you star specs) but at much reduced grip levels. Stop to rotate the tires every 800 miles as allowed by the test and voila, you've got a tire that lasts a very long time.

.

Looking at Tire Rack, the 205/50/15 Rival has a wider treadwidth than the Rival S by almost a full inch. Checking the 225/45/15 shows almost a full inch difference between them as well.

I'm not sure how accurate that is. We have sets of both in our shop. We measured them and they are the same dimensions. The rival and the rival s are the same size and tread design.

I don't think that there is the loophole that you think there is. It is also being discussed on nasaforums here.

By the letter and spirit of the rule as written, the Rival-S is 2 pts. Available and unchanged treadwear rating. How NASA chooses to interpret the letter of their own rules in impound could change however.

Well, now we know where Greg put this tire. After a season of use since this thread was active, does anyone have any hard data on this tire? Now that use of an R7 is out the window for me for both TTE and TTD, I'm figuring out what I want to do. I don't really care about tire life. This thread is leaving me to believe that it's definitely faster than the Maxxis and RR. Is that true?

My car as is I can put a 205 Rival S on for 2016 and run TTE. The 225 bumps me out and I'd have to do significant setup changes. Thoughts on a 205 Rival S on 15x9s vs the 205 R7 on 15x9s?

What about a 225 Rival S vs 205 R7?

RE71R is same points, a tick faster and steers better. Some cars might work better on the V720. Haven't driven on those yet though.

Thanks for the reply. Are they as close to the R7 as you originally were speculating?

Bridgestone doesn't have NASA contingency, so that might still push me towards the Rival S.

205 ok on a x9?

New 225 Rival S on 15x9. I think 205's would go on, but they'd be real stretched looking. These are borderline in my opinion. My old 225 Nitto NT-01's were less stretched looking than these.


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1449243009

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1449243009

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1449243009

Thanks for the pictures, those look like my 205 R7s on x9s. Looks like I'm in the market for 15x8s unless I can find a way to make 225s work with my points.

They look to have have pretty substantial tread splitting from the factory. Have they given you issues?

haven't run them yet. Hopefully will get to drive them on track late December pending weather.

I'll report findings in this thread...

I have lots of race miles on 225 Rival S, owing to running a trio of 7hr enduros earlier this year with a customer's Chumpcar team. We've never seen any issues with tread splicing. We run those tires on 8s because we can't fit 9s (stock springs), and they really do want 9s.

You can run non-Hoosier 205s on 9s, there's no downside to that aside from perhaps a small aero penalty. Hoosier 205s obviously want a 9" wheel.

How did they hold up in the enduro race? And how long did they last?

i think they look stupid (stretched 205's on 9" rims). :dealwithit:

Thank you. Yes, been running 205 hoosiers on 9s for a couple years now, happy to hear I can run 205 Rivals without buying more wheels. Appreciate it.

Why can't you run R7s?

2016 rules don't give me back 10 points any longer for being 40mm under base class tire width. Trying to re-configuring my car with minimal set up changes (not competing nationally), and the easiest way to still make class is down grading tires.

Ah, so you ran 195s before, gotcha.

No, I ran 205s in TTD. TTE field has been more consistent in my region though, and I'm pretty sure I can be at or towards the top of it with my car as is with Rival S tires and adding some weight. TTD is tougher without the purple stuff and/or more power.

What car do you have and what is it's base class or dyno-reclassed class? I'm fairly certain tire size limits is based off your car's base class, not which class you end up in after points.

It's a 96 VVT swapped, dyno reclassed to TTD* as the base class. This isn't my first rodeo.

Ah! That makes sense, sorry.

You can still use Hoosiers in D if you use stock aero with the same setup you would use in TTE with a TTE* base class. Basically you got knocked for 3 points, and you'll need to submit a new email for a new reclass since the base weight of all Miatas changed. Reclasses prior to the 2016 rules release are now void because of that. From what I can tell you'll get dinged for approximately 40 pounds if you keep the same maximum horsepower and base class.

+7 TTD* Base
+10 Hoosier R7
-7 Tire Size -30+mm
+5 Coilovers
+3 LSD

= +18

Or

+7 TTD* Base
+9 205 Hoosier SM7
-7 Tire Size -30+mm
+5 Coilovers
+3 LSD
+2 Sway Bars

= +19

I am confused with all the codes being thrown around here....

100 and 200 something or rather..nasa points etc....means nothing to me. I can barely keep up with the model codes... re71, Rival, rival S, R6, Hoosier this, Hoosier that, BFG (BF Goodrich?)...yahdy yahda.

My question is this...It seems to be a street legal tyre so is DOT rated (our class requirement) BUT is BFG Rival S faster than an NT01 or not?