[Warning: M.net content] Turbos make more power but superchargers make more 'torque'
02-23-2010, 11:10 AM
#63
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Here is my post on the matter in which I discuss throttle nonlinearity in NA motors. IMO it's an important concept to understand.
MX-5 Miata Forum - View Single Post - old TC vs SC debate...
Hey Sav, how do you think a 220 hp GT2554 setup would compare to a 220 hp s/c setup on the track?
MX-5 Miata Forum - View Single Post - old TC vs SC debate...
Hey Sav, how do you think a 220 hp GT2554 setup would compare to a 220 hp s/c setup on the track?
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02-23-2010, 11:58 AM
#64
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Also when you go from WOT to zero throttle, it takes almost a solid second for the car to stop accelerating!
I've yet to see any solid evidence of exactly WHAT a positive displacement supercharger can do that a turbo can't. But hey, I'm a keyboard racer... What do I know? Something I do know: Side by side with a turbocharged car at a slow 2nd gear roll without any brake boosting, I've already lost on the third honk.
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02-23-2010, 12:28 PM
#67
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02-23-2010, 12:28 PM
#68
I love this asshat.
Gee. SC's are way better and I have proof. My SC Miata is way more fun than my 1980's turbo brick family truckster.
Dick.
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I have a mildly massaged Turbo Volvo and a HEAVILY modified Coldside Supercharged Miata, The SC is a LOT more fun than the TC. The TC has a nice kick after I hit about 2700, but the SC will roast the tires almost anywhere in the RPM range. My 5000 and up does not pull as hard as below 5k, but it still does pull strong.
So IMHO The SC is more fun to play with.
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I have a mildly massaged Turbo Volvo and a HEAVILY modified Coldside Supercharged Miata, The SC is a LOT more fun than the TC. The TC has a nice kick after I hit about 2700, but the SC will roast the tires almost anywhere in the RPM range. My 5000 and up does not pull as hard as below 5k, but it still does pull strong.
So IMHO The SC is more fun to play with.
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02-23-2010, 12:48 PM
#70
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From what I keep on seeing, T-cars seem to "need" way more dyno output than other options for given "fast" lap times. An example is the all-time track record a supercharged Miata just achieved, with just 230 rwhp. Or have I missed all the barely over 200 rwhp T-cars that are much faster than the lap time record? If I am mistaken then that track record is about to be crushed by 10-15 different T cars at the next decent track day. And not by 1 second by say 5 seconds? By lunch time the present track record in a SC car will not even make the top 10 list??!! Agree? Since the sc cars are slower per your POV.
Can a 230 rwhp turbo rig do this? Why is it that relatively lower output SC rigs beat "stronger" turbo cars? Nearly always if the output is the same, the SC wins. And it often prevails or is close even if the output is lower.
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.p...0&postcount=50
"good news for Rotrex. last Sunday, Emilio drove a Kraftwerks Rotrex powered Miata (230whp) to the absolute track record at Buttonwillow #13, 1:54.4. This bested all previous records, including Redline Time Attack and Super Lap.
2nd fastest lap time - Matt Andrew's 350whp Turbo Miata at 1:55.7 at Nov 09 SLB. 3rd fastest lap time - Gordon's 300whp Rotrex Miata at 1:56.4x"
So….first and third place on the fast laps charts are held by supercharged cars which are less common than all the turbo cars trying to keep up...
ANSWER…throttle response / direct feel / lack of big lag / etc DO matter.
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.p...0&postcount=50
"good news for Rotrex. last Sunday, Emilio drove a Kraftwerks Rotrex powered Miata (230whp) to the absolute track record at Buttonwillow #13, 1:54.4. This bested all previous records, including Redline Time Attack and Super Lap.
2nd fastest lap time - Matt Andrew's 350whp Turbo Miata at 1:55.7 at Nov 09 SLB. 3rd fastest lap time - Gordon's 300whp Rotrex Miata at 1:56.4x"
So….first and third place on the fast laps charts are held by supercharged cars which are less common than all the turbo cars trying to keep up...
ANSWER…throttle response / direct feel / lack of big lag / etc DO matter.
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02-23-2010, 12:58 PM
#71
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Being that this is a turbo forum I expect a bit of bias. And outright ignorance demands some abuse. But, I think some of you are missing the point of a SC.
In a word, simplicity. You take a 100HP car, spend some bucks and in a weekend you have a 160+HP car. Bolt it on, press a few buttons on the piggyback, and you're done. Almost anyone can do it. It's CARB approved, so no hassle with inspection. Another weekend to put if back to stock if you want. Put it on and forget it, and now you don't have to be embarrased by minivans in traffic. Like dropping in a larger engine, without the work.
Not everyone autocrosses or races their car. Most (especially the older set) want a reliable weekend sports car, and no hassles. With house and kids and wife, you can't afford to spend weekends wrenching, and so the quick bolt-on aspect is appealing. Nothing more to buy, no exhaust work, no drilling the pan.
No, it's not the source of ultimate power. In fact, it's probably a bad idea (or more difficult) if your goal is more than 175HP. Yes, turbo lag and such are nonsense arguments. But for sheer ease, it's hard to beat.
In a word, simplicity. You take a 100HP car, spend some bucks and in a weekend you have a 160+HP car. Bolt it on, press a few buttons on the piggyback, and you're done. Almost anyone can do it. It's CARB approved, so no hassle with inspection. Another weekend to put if back to stock if you want. Put it on and forget it, and now you don't have to be embarrased by minivans in traffic. Like dropping in a larger engine, without the work.
Not everyone autocrosses or races their car. Most (especially the older set) want a reliable weekend sports car, and no hassles. With house and kids and wife, you can't afford to spend weekends wrenching, and so the quick bolt-on aspect is appealing. Nothing more to buy, no exhaust work, no drilling the pan.
No, it's not the source of ultimate power. In fact, it's probably a bad idea (or more difficult) if your goal is more than 175HP. Yes, turbo lag and such are nonsense arguments. But for sheer ease, it's hard to beat.
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02-23-2010, 12:59 PM
#72
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And here is an example with a car you're familiar with.
Searched the forum here for autocross threads from my neck of the woods and found this one:
https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t36801/
Then looked up the results to compare with mine.
Splitime's turbo Miata you know vs mine which is maybe about 400 lbs heavier than his (mine still has the AC, full trim) and on top he has maybe 50 hp on me? I remember seeing that car and driver was good and I am no Michael Schumacher.
How did my heat creating dinosaur technology blender mounted on a tank got over a second faster time? Not talking about a tenth or two here but over a second which is a big lap difference.
Cars # 29 vs 711:
Windy City Miata Club AutoX
I am not saying my car is the quicker accelerating one line 'cause it is not.
Just the way the blower is setup it is really easy to drive fast has part in it - and that is not just my opinion by many national level drivers (some champs) who have driven it (the comment was always like - awesome throttle response, really easy to throttle steer and drive fast)
Savington said it best here:
Ok, continue to keybord race now
Searched the forum here for autocross threads from my neck of the woods and found this one:
https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t36801/
Then looked up the results to compare with mine.
Splitime's turbo Miata you know vs mine which is maybe about 400 lbs heavier than his (mine still has the AC, full trim) and on top he has maybe 50 hp on me? I remember seeing that car and driver was good and I am no Michael Schumacher.
How did my heat creating dinosaur technology blender mounted on a tank got over a second faster time? Not talking about a tenth or two here but over a second which is a big lap difference.
Cars # 29 vs 711:
Windy City Miata Club AutoX
I am not saying my car is the quicker accelerating one line 'cause it is not.
Just the way the blower is setup it is really easy to drive fast has part in it - and that is not just my opinion by many national level drivers (some champs) who have driven it (the comment was always like - awesome throttle response, really easy to throttle steer and drive fast)
Savington said it best here:
The entire problem is that half them AND half of you guys are totally unwilling to admit that superchargers do things that turbos do not do.
The other half of the problem is that most of the people on each side of the argument have virtually no experience with the other type of FI.
The other half of the problem is that most of the people on each side of the argument have virtually no experience with the other type of FI.
Ok, continue to keybord race now
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02-23-2010, 01:11 PM
#75
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I am not talking about faster than someone who doesn't know how to drive. Look at the link with the results above - talking about the top spots - those aren't people who learned to drive fast yesterday and are not driving with just the Miata club but some go to many events in the midwest ... That spot 2 Ricardo guy has been racing for maybe like 20-30 years and has been a midwest champ many times
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02-23-2010, 01:28 PM
#77
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Linearity in throttle response is fine. But beyond saying its nice, its pretty hard to say thats its a definitive advantage. Especially when the OP in there (remember him?) is not looking for a race car. I have seen NA Miatas run faster than forced induction ones. Shoot spec Miatas kick the stuffing out of most FI setups. But you cant then infer that for performance NA is better than FI in a low displacement application or something.
People rave up and down about how steerable the Evos are on throttle. I can dig up a few references to how even moving your big toe will modulate the throttle. I can personally vouch for this with my own past 4G63 powered car. I could press my big toe down and get just a bit more TQ. Thats in virtually any gear at virtually any RPM. And that was a car running an early 1990s tech 16G turbo and 7.8:1-8.3:1 compression to a Miatas 9:1. That was with a 3000+ LB AWD car. That was with pig rich running conditions and low timing.
Linear response is great sure. But its a side note on a DDed car looking for fun and apperantly good mileage or something. I will concede the ease of install part sure. But personally I will endure a bit more installation hastle rather than comprimise on a setup.
People rave up and down about how steerable the Evos are on throttle. I can dig up a few references to how even moving your big toe will modulate the throttle. I can personally vouch for this with my own past 4G63 powered car. I could press my big toe down and get just a bit more TQ. Thats in virtually any gear at virtually any RPM. And that was a car running an early 1990s tech 16G turbo and 7.8:1-8.3:1 compression to a Miatas 9:1. That was with a 3000+ LB AWD car. That was with pig rich running conditions and low timing.
Linear response is great sure. But its a side note on a DDed car looking for fun and apperantly good mileage or something. I will concede the ease of install part sure. But personally I will endure a bit more installation hastle rather than comprimise on a setup.
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02-23-2010, 01:29 PM
#78
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In a word, simplicity. You take a 100HP car, spend some bucks and in a weekend you have a 160+HP car. Bolt it on, press a few buttons on the piggyback, and you're done. Almost anyone can do it. It's CARB approved, so no hassle with inspection. Another weekend to put if back to stock if you want. Put it on and forget it, and now you don't have to be embarrased by minivans in traffic. Like dropping in a larger engine, without the work.
I've put maybe 3000 miles on the S/C setup thus far, on the second belt. Ask the previous owner of this kit CRNRHRD how "put it on and forget it" the system was.
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02-23-2010, 01:39 PM
#79
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The hardest part of installing a turbo kit (don't see much DIY supercharged vehicles hmmm) is drilling the oilpan (oh noes). Other than that it is bolt on. Even the voodoo is cake to install if you can splice wires and turn a screw driver. And the MS isn't much harder than that (if not easier) Honestly could be done in less than 3 hours. You could run 8psi with the FM1 kit all day (I did) no issues.
Plus for street drivers, who wants to be driving that extra pulley all the time. Their argument of instant power actually works against them on the street. For daily driving I don't need that 'power' all the time anyways. Most days I stay below 1-2psi.
Plus for street drivers, who wants to be driving that extra pulley all the time. Their argument of instant power actually works against them on the street. For daily driving I don't need that 'power' all the time anyways. Most days I stay below 1-2psi.
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02-23-2010, 01:46 PM
#80
One of the things I like most about my Saab 900 2.0t is that I can cruise all day at 75 mph just out of boost (well, according to the factory "boost" gauge which isn't really a boost gauge at all), getting the mileage of a 2 liter 4 cylinder, but if I stomp it in 5th gear it's not a dog.
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