[Warning: M.net content] Turbos make more power but superchargers make more 'torque' - Page 4 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 02-23-2010, 09:22 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by j_man View Post
He is not insane and he has more racing cars experience (including turbos) than 99% of the people here and over there too
doesn't mean he's not insane, just remember, 230rwhp superchargers are faster than 250rwhp turbochargers. It's proven.
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Old 02-23-2010, 10:16 AM   #62
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Instead he wants to post definitions of "blowoff valve" and "Wastegate."

The OP had a very frigged up idea of how a turbo setup works, so I posted it. As opposed to talking about Keonigseggs or something.
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Old 02-23-2010, 12:10 PM   #63
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Here is my post on the matter in which I discuss throttle nonlinearity in NA motors. IMO it's an important concept to understand.

MX-5 Miata Forum - View Single Post - old TC vs SC debate...

Hey Sav, how do you think a 220 hp GT2554 setup would compare to a 220 hp s/c setup on the track?
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Old 02-23-2010, 12:58 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Rennkafer View Post
Ok I'll bite... discounting the Rotrex which is basically a belt driven turbo, what does a positive displacement SC do that's desirable?
Add 150 degrees to ambient air temps? Make a mess of belt dust under your hood because no matter how tight you wrench it down, IT WILL SLIP... Since I added that piece of **** to my car I've noticed something pretty interesting... a lag in throttle response. How is that possible?

Also when you go from WOT to zero throttle, it takes almost a solid second for the car to stop accelerating!

I've yet to see any solid evidence of exactly WHAT a positive displacement supercharger can do that a turbo can't. But hey, I'm a keyboard racer... What do I know? Something I do know: Side by side with a turbocharged car at a slow 2nd gear roll without any brake boosting, I've already lost on the third honk.
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Old 02-23-2010, 01:05 PM   #65
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Since I added that piece of **** to my car I've noticed something pretty interesting... a lag in throttle response. How is that possible?
Probably because it has more throttle volume than engine displacement, haha.
Also, its gay.
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Old 02-23-2010, 01:24 PM   #66
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We forgot to mention that we can run 3" exhaust and not sound extremely loud.
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Old 02-23-2010, 01:28 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
doesn't mean he's not insane, just remember, 230rwhp superchargers are faster than 250rwhp turbochargers. It's proven.
By memory of that thread from a week or two ago, he was talking about the supercharger being easier to drive thus often people putting faster lap times at autocrosses, and not that 250 hp turbocharged car is slower than a 230 hp supercharged one.



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Old 02-23-2010, 01:28 PM   #68
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I love this asshat.

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I have a mildly massaged Turbo Volvo and a HEAVILY modified Coldside Supercharged Miata, The SC is a LOT more fun than the TC. The TC has a nice kick after I hit about 2700, but the SC will roast the tires almost anywhere in the RPM range. My 5000 and up does not pull as hard as below 5k, but it still does pull strong.

So IMHO The SC is more fun to play with.
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Gee. SC's are way better and I have proof. My SC Miata is way more fun than my 1980's turbo brick family truckster.

Dick.
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Old 02-23-2010, 01:34 PM   #69
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I love this asshat.



Gee. SC's are way better and I have proof. My SC Miata is way more fun than my 1980's turbo brick family truckster.

Dick.
yah the volvo is a leMons build I think...

sounds fast
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Old 02-23-2010, 01:48 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j_man View Post
By memory of that thread from a week or two ago, he was talking about the supercharger being easier to drive thus often people putting faster lap times at autocrosses, and not that 250 hp turbocharged car is slower than a 230 hp supercharged one.

Quote:
From what I keep on seeing, T-cars seem to "need" way more dyno output than other options for given "fast" lap times. An example is the all-time track record a supercharged Miata just achieved, with just 230 rwhp. Or have I missed all the barely over 200 rwhp T-cars that are much faster than the lap time record? If I am mistaken then that track record is about to be crushed by 10-15 different T cars at the next decent track day. And not by 1 second by say 5 seconds? By lunch time the present track record in a SC car will not even make the top 10 list??!! Agree? Since the sc cars are slower per your POV.
Quote:
Can a 230 rwhp turbo rig do this? Why is it that relatively lower output SC rigs beat "stronger" turbo cars? Nearly always if the output is the same, the SC wins. And it often prevails or is close even if the output is lower.



http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.p...0&postcount=50

"good news for Rotrex. last Sunday, Emilio drove a Kraftwerks Rotrex powered Miata (230whp) to the absolute track record at Buttonwillow #13, 1:54.4. This bested all previous records, including Redline Time Attack and Super Lap.
2nd fastest lap time - Matt Andrew's 350whp Turbo Miata at 1:55.7 at Nov 09 SLB. 3rd fastest lap time - Gordon's 300whp Rotrex Miata at 1:56.4x"

So….first and third place on the fast laps charts are held by supercharged cars which are less common than all the turbo cars trying to keep up...



ANSWER…throttle response / direct feel / lack of big lag / etc DO matter.
oh yar? Sounds like someone has a bad case of the "doesn't take anything else into consideration" - for example, the SC car is on A6s the turbo car on NT01
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Old 02-23-2010, 01:58 PM   #71
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Being that this is a turbo forum I expect a bit of bias. And outright ignorance demands some abuse. But, I think some of you are missing the point of a SC.

In a word, simplicity. You take a 100HP car, spend some bucks and in a weekend you have a 160+HP car. Bolt it on, press a few buttons on the piggyback, and you're done. Almost anyone can do it. It's CARB approved, so no hassle with inspection. Another weekend to put if back to stock if you want. Put it on and forget it, and now you don't have to be embarrased by minivans in traffic. Like dropping in a larger engine, without the work.

Not everyone autocrosses or races their car. Most (especially the older set) want a reliable weekend sports car, and no hassles. With house and kids and wife, you can't afford to spend weekends wrenching, and so the quick bolt-on aspect is appealing. Nothing more to buy, no exhaust work, no drilling the pan.

No, it's not the source of ultimate power. In fact, it's probably a bad idea (or more difficult) if your goal is more than 175HP. Yes, turbo lag and such are nonsense arguments. But for sheer ease, it's hard to beat.
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Old 02-23-2010, 01:59 PM   #72
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And here is an example with a car you're familiar with.

Searched the forum here for autocross threads from my neck of the woods and found this one:

https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t36801/


Then looked up the results to compare with mine.

Splitime's turbo Miata you know vs mine which is maybe about 400 lbs heavier than his (mine still has the AC, full trim) and on top he has maybe 50 hp on me? I remember seeing that car and driver was good and I am no Michael Schumacher.

How did my heat creating dinosaur technology blender mounted on a tank got over a second faster time? Not talking about a tenth or two here but over a second which is a big lap difference.

Cars # 29 vs 711:

Windy City Miata Club AutoX

I am not saying my car is the quicker accelerating one line 'cause it is not.
Just the way the blower is setup it is really easy to drive fast has part in it - and that is not just my opinion by many national level drivers (some champs) who have driven it (the comment was always like - awesome throttle response, really easy to throttle steer and drive fast)


Savington said it best here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
The entire problem is that half them AND half of you guys are totally unwilling to admit that superchargers do things that turbos do not do.

The other half of the problem is that most of the people on each side of the argument have virtually no experience with the other type of FI.

Ok, continue to keybord race now
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Old 02-23-2010, 02:00 PM   #73
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relete, nothing in post your couldn't be said the same of a turbo setup.
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Old 02-23-2010, 02:05 PM   #74
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I did an all mazda autox once. I was second fastest, only .0X slower than a new NC and beating a few mp45 powered miatas.

so case closed.
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Old 02-23-2010, 02:11 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
I did an all mazda autox once. I was second fastest, only .0X slower than a new NC and beating a few mp45 powered miatas.

so case closed.
I am not talking about faster than someone who doesn't know how to drive. Look at the link with the results above - talking about the top spots - those aren't people who learned to drive fast yesterday and are not driving with just the Miata club but some go to many events in the midwest ... That spot 2 Ricardo guy has been racing for maybe like 20-30 years and has been a midwest champ many times
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Old 02-23-2010, 02:13 PM   #76
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sorry, the case has been closed!
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Old 02-23-2010, 02:28 PM   #77
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Linearity in throttle response is fine. But beyond saying its nice, its pretty hard to say thats its a definitive advantage. Especially when the OP in there (remember him?) is not looking for a race car. I have seen NA Miatas run faster than forced induction ones. Shoot spec Miatas kick the stuffing out of most FI setups. But you cant then infer that for performance NA is better than FI in a low displacement application or something.

People rave up and down about how steerable the Evos are on throttle. I can dig up a few references to how even moving your big toe will modulate the throttle. I can personally vouch for this with my own past 4G63 powered car. I could press my big toe down and get just a bit more TQ. Thats in virtually any gear at virtually any RPM. And that was a car running an early 1990s tech 16G turbo and 7.8:1-8.3:1 compression to a Miatas 9:1. That was with a 3000+ LB AWD car. That was with pig rich running conditions and low timing.

Linear response is great sure. But its a side note on a DDed car looking for fun and apperantly good mileage or something. I will concede the ease of install part sure. But personally I will endure a bit more installation hastle rather than comprimise on a setup.
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Old 02-23-2010, 02:29 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rleete View Post
In a word, simplicity. You take a 100HP car, spend some bucks and in a weekend you have a 160+HP car. Bolt it on, press a few buttons on the piggyback, and you're done. Almost anyone can do it. It's CARB approved, so no hassle with inspection. Another weekend to put if back to stock if you want. Put it on and forget it, and now you don't have to be embarrased by minivans in traffic. Like dropping in a larger engine, without the work.
Its not that simple, though.

I've put maybe 3000 miles on the S/C setup thus far, on the second belt. Ask the previous owner of this kit CRNRHRD how "put it on and forget it" the system was.
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Old 02-23-2010, 02:39 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by rleete View Post
But, I think some of you are missing the point of a SC.
The hardest part of installing a turbo kit (don't see much DIY supercharged vehicles hmmm) is drilling the oilpan (oh noes). Other than that it is bolt on. Even the voodoo is cake to install if you can splice wires and turn a screw driver. And the MS isn't much harder than that (if not easier) Honestly could be done in less than 3 hours. You could run 8psi with the FM1 kit all day (I did) no issues.

Plus for street drivers, who wants to be driving that extra pulley all the time. Their argument of instant power actually works against them on the street. For daily driving I don't need that 'power' all the time anyways. Most days I stay below 1-2psi.
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Old 02-23-2010, 02:46 PM   #80
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Plus for street drivers, who wants to be driving that extra pulley all the time. Their argument of instant power actually works against them on the street. For daily driving I don't need that 'power' all the time anyways. Most days I stay below 1-2psi.
+1

One of the things I like most about my Saab 900 2.0t is that I can cruise all day at 75 mph just out of boost (well, according to the factory "boost" gauge which isn't really a boost gauge at all), getting the mileage of a 2 liter 4 cylinder, but if I stomp it in 5th gear it's not a dog.
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