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Old 01-21-2016, 05:59 PM   #3541
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Roubaix and Synapse both correspond to a class of bikes... comfort. Both have 4 or so frames that carry the general name.

I have owned both a Roubaix S-Works, and now a Synapse Hi-Mod; top of the range from each supplier. OK, so they are not $5K + frames, but not cheap either. I hold that Canondale Synapse Hi-Mod is a magnificant piece of engineering -- blending very well a decent ride, climbing efficiency, and decending prowess. As you mentioned above, their bikes easily go where you wnat them to. Both of mine ran Super Record.

I also concur that 25mm tires are a good thing, although rim width also enters in.

To Savington's comment: my CAAD5 has a long top tube and I use a 75mm stem with it. I don't like the feel of a long stem. It makes me feel like I'm moving the bars left and right, rather than rotating them. I think I am using a 95mm now, though with the short throw handlebars (and somewhat short Campy hoods), am contemplating adding a cm.
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Old 01-21-2016, 06:17 PM   #3542
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I put campy on all (almost) my bikes, most of which are incredibly cheap.
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Old 01-21-2016, 06:52 PM   #3543
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I put campy on all (almost) my bikes, most of which are incredibly cheap.
You are unemployed.
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Old 01-21-2016, 06:59 PM   #3544
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Originally Posted by DNMakinson View Post
To Savington's comment: my CAAD5 has a long top tube and I use a 75mm stem with it. I don't like the feel of a long stem. It makes me feel like I'm moving the bars left and right, rather than rotating them. I think I am using a 95mm now, though with the short throw handlebars (and somewhat short Campy hoods), am contemplating adding a cm.
I've tried an 80mm stem on the S3 and I've never almost crashed a bike so quickly. Took that **** off immediately and told the fitter to never try to put me on an 80mm stem again. I tried an 80 on the CAAD10 a long time ago and didn't like that either, although it was much more stable than the S3 was.

You shouldn't be rotating the bars, nor should it feel like you are rotating the bars. You should be pushing on the right lever to turn right and pushing on the left lever to turn left.
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Old 01-21-2016, 07:07 PM   #3545
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You are unemployed.
I'm at work.
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Old 01-21-2016, 07:40 PM   #3546
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
You shouldn't be rotating the bars, nor should it feel like you are rotating the bars. You should be pushing on the right lever to turn right and pushing on the left lever to turn left.
Yes, that is how you rotate them.
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Old 01-21-2016, 08:00 PM   #3547
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Originally Posted by DNMakinson View Post
Yes, that is how you rotate them.
I had a similar feeling on the propel, like I had to turn the bars to get the bike to turn. I don't really know enough about bicycles to know which handles "best", just know that I'm accustomed to my Evo and it feels like home.
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Old 01-21-2016, 09:49 PM   #3548
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
The CX bikes have far slacker head tubes, but the CAAD and the S3 are identical IIRC.

Same 100mm on everything. I don't have the arm/torso length or flexibility to go longer.

One of the big things I like about the S3 is the stack/reach ratio. I am not a spider-limbed pro cyclist so I like a lot of stack and a moderate amount of reach. My biggest complaint with the CAAD was that it always felt a little bit long (394mm reach), to the point where it would give me lower back pain on longer rides (50+ miles). The Stigmata is 388 with a more compact bar (70mm reach) and it feels perfect, but I don't think I can be as comfortable on a bike with 390+mm of reach. I can drop down to a 54cm CAAD12, but the headtube on that bike is so low that I'll end up with 2" of spacers under the stem to get the bars where I want them. The CAAD12s also have shorter wheelbases than the 10s did - the 54cm CAAD12 only has 980mm of wheelbase (56cm S3 is ~982mm).

The idea of something like a Synapse or a Roubaix has crossed my mind too. I know I can get the position I want on something like that.
Sounds like you're in the same boat I was in a couple years ago. I'm about 5'9" and have a pretty short torso/reach, so I always felt stretch out on most bikes I tried. I decided to get a custom frame and pretty much let the builder do what they thought was best after giving them some relevant fit & position info. Sounds like you may be a bit taller, but here's my geometry if it's of any help:



It's a bit of a mix between a 50 and 52 cm CAAD. The wheelbase is about 967 mm and the reach is about 374 mm. The overall reach from tip of saddle to CL of bars is relatively short, but it still allows for a good bit of forward rotation for a low position. I really find that this helps over the more upright position that taller headtubes usually create.

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"Hydroforming triple-butted tubes minimizes weight while being able to really dial in both stiffness and comfort. Cadel Evans, BMC’s recently-retired Tour de France winner, is riding this ALR01 as his main bike, and he finds it as stiff and comfortable as the Teammachine SLR01 he raced until recently."

Yeah but still, why aluminum over CF? Durability for transportation, crashes, money? or because he's so boss that he can ride their inexpensive 105 (red) aluminum bike, with DA upgrades, and dominate just cause.
Why not? Aluminum manufacturing technology has really taken off in the last few years. With the new hydrofoil processes and custom/aggressive butting that can be applied to the tubing, aluminum can create a really sweat ride. The marketing of carbon frames is really unbelievable and is what drives people to place them on a pedestal. They definitely have their place and can create some really great bikes, but there are other materials out there that are as good and even better.

Philippe Gilbert raced an aluminum Canyon just a few years ago with quite a bit of success.

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Old 01-21-2016, 10:19 PM   #3549
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Originally Posted by Itty View Post
Generally bikes feel twitchy in the front from lack of trail. In other words, too much rake for a given HT angle. This tends to happen when bike manufacturers use the same fork for varying HT angles.
For comparison's sake:
54cm S3: 970mm wheelbase, 57.4mm trail
56cm S3: 982mm wheelbase, 55.5mm trail
54cm CAAD12: 980mm wheelbase, 58mm trail
56cm CAAD12: 989mm wheelbase, 56cm trail
56cm CAAD10: 993mm wheelbase, 56cm trail

Based on that, I probably wouldn't like a 56cm S3 much more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dubya View Post
If you look at their geometry charts, you can see how they keep the chainstay length and seattube angle constant while essentially pulling the headtube up and out. This shouldn't be happening. You can't just ignore the relationship between the front and rear end of a bicycle frame like Cervelo does.
Can you expand on this a little? Comparing the geometry of the CAAD10/12s to the S3 line, the CAADs do vary the seat tube angle, but since the position of the saddle is dictated by the bottom bracket location and not by the seat tube, the seat tube angle shouldn't matter at all (within reason).

As far as the chainstay lengths being the same, everyone does this until the bikes get huge. All the CAAD12s and the S3s are all the same (405mm) and the CAAD10 was 408mm for every size between 48 and 58.
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Old 01-21-2016, 10:30 PM   #3550
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This **** is getting old:



Made another spacer thingy for my mis-aligned rear drop out.
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Old 01-21-2016, 11:09 PM   #3551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Can you expand on this a little? Comparing the geometry of the CAAD10/12s to the S3 line, the CAADs do vary the seat tube angle, but since the position of the saddle is dictated by the bottom bracket location and not by the seat tube, the seat tube angle shouldn't matter at all (within reason).

As far as the chainstay lengths being the same, everyone does this until the bikes get huge. All the CAAD12s and the S3s are all the same (405mm) and the CAAD10 was 408mm for every size between 48 and 58.
Sorry, I guess I didn't explain that very well. You're right, the position of the saddle is is measured relative to the bottom bracket. However, the angle of the seat tube also affects the reach (or, the effective length of the top tube). Let's say you have two bikes with the same actual top tube length, but one has a steeper seat tube angle than the other. As a result, the steeper one will have a longer reach since it's effectively pushing the head tube forward more while the rider has to move their saddle back to retain a given position behind the bottom bracket. All of this affects the rider position on the bike as well as the overall handling characteristics, which is why most manufacturers will alter the seat tube angle and chainstay length a little as the overall size of the frame goes up.

Check out this Lennard Zinn article (scroll to the last Q & A on the page) - he does a much better job explaining it than I ever can: Technical FAQ with Lennard Zinn: Living by the rules - VeloNews.com
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Old 01-21-2016, 11:32 PM   #3552
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Sorry, I guess I didn't explain that very well. You're right, the position of the saddle is is measured relative to the bottom bracket. However, the angle of the seat tube also affects the reach (or, the effective length of the top tube).
Gotcha. Cervelo just does that by lengthening the TT, though (presumably because standing the seat tube up ***** with the aero a lot more than just making the bike longer). Their bikes are generally shorter than "normal", but they do get longer and taller as the sizes go up, and they advertise that they do a better job than most other manufacturers at getting appropriately longer/taller with each size step. If you want a really bad example, compare a 49cm Venge to a 52cm Venge. Same exact reach on those two frames.

I will check out that article, thanks.
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Old 01-22-2016, 12:35 AM   #3553
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Chiming in to the fit issue a bit late but two other measurements to be aware of for steering and stability. Reach of the bar bend and ctr to ctr width. I measure seat nose to fork center, to bar center and to tip of brake hood. Shorter reach and narrower bars can make steering feel more sensitive out of the saddle, everything else being equal.

I ride a Cervelo S5 but in the largest size. So I might not be exposed to the peculiarities that Andrew is experiencing. Also, I'm built like a spider monkey and flexible.
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Old 01-22-2016, 01:32 AM   #3554
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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
Reach of the bar bend and ctr to ctr width.
They are Ergonovas, I think the same as what you have on the S5. They are 44cm C-C, about 2cm narrower on the hoods. I briefly used a set of 42cm Ergonovas on my FG and didn't feel stable on them, even on the hoods. Swapped those for 44cm and it's much better. On the hoods the S3 is fine, the issue is in the drops. I had the same bars on the CAAD10, though, so that's not it. :(
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Old 01-22-2016, 02:07 AM   #3555
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Funny that. I just put my Ergonova Team 44's from the S5 onto the cross bike and installed a new 2016 version (internal ports) Ergonova Team 42's onto the S5. My shoulders aren't that wide.

Longer reach and/or wider bars give you more leverage over the torque generated by the tire and frame/steering geometry. For me the 42s are more comfy and more aero too.
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Old 01-22-2016, 10:53 AM   #3556
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Serious question:
When you guys are shopping frames, how do you learn what does and doesn't work for you, before you buy?
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Old 01-22-2016, 11:25 AM   #3557
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sav, sounds like you want a different bike.

if your fitter wanted you on an 80mm stem and you didn't ride it for at least a week you might have short changed yourself.


That said, if your using an 80mm stem on a bike like that, its probably on the optimal to longer top tube/reach than what you want. I agree a custom frame is probably the best option.

405mm rear end is pretty short, but it coincides with the short front center too. if your feeling like your front end wants to wash out on you, try moving the seat as far forward as you can on the post. It will totally jack the leg portion of the fit, but you will be able to see if it balances the feeling out (not enough weight on the front end).

On my TCR I had to play a bit. Im running the seat a bit more forward (towards the front end of the rails) and longer reach handlebars with the same 80mm stem to get my weight on the front end. when I had shorter reach handlebars and the seat placed a bit more rearward based on some computer recommendation I didn't have enough weight on the front end and it would wander all over the place.





Lastly, and I leave it for last because I assume you've tried it already, but have you tried other wheels/tires and most importantly tire pressure? I have noticed when I run the tires too high it feels darty and the steering goes all light. same with shitty tires at any pressure.
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Old 01-22-2016, 01:31 PM   #3558
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
Serious question:
When you guys are shopping frames, how do you learn what does and doesn't work for you, before you buy?
Once you know what works for you, measure everything, all points of contact relative to other points of contact, ground plane, bb and axles. You can then overlay your measurements onto any new frame build and get your position and weight distribution right. For the road, weight distribution matters but I can fudge it a cm here or there. For CX though, it has to be spot on to maximize low speed grip and balance.

Personally, my critical area is front center. I have really long femurs and relatively short arms/torso. So my knees hit the stem out of the saddle unless I have a certain (long) TT length. From there I can fudge the rest by sliding the seat fore/aft, stem length and bar reach.

Short answer: Experience. After getting one drop bar bike right, you should be able to duplicate it with the standard geometry chart mfr's provide.
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Old 01-22-2016, 01:43 PM   #3559
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if your fitter wanted you on an 80mm stem and you didn't ride it for at least a week you might have short changed yourself.
He did the 80 because I couldn't get far enough forward on the seat I had. I have the zero-offset S5 post and even with the saddle slammed all the way forward, my knee was still 20mm behind the pedal spindle because of how I was sitting on that saddle. I swapped it (SMP Composit) for a wider version of the same thing (SMP Forma) which repositioned me forward 20cm on the bike and then put the 100mm stem back on. The riding position on the bike is excellent now. I set the Stigmata up based on data from that fit and it's awesome too.

Quote:
405mm rear end is pretty short, but it coincides with the short front center too.
405 appears to be a standard for race-geometry road bikes. CAAD10, CAAD12, S3, S5, Spesh Tarmac/Venge, and probably most everyone else.

Quote:
Lastly, and I leave it for last because I assume you've tried it already, but have you tried other wheels/tires and most importantly tire pressure? I have noticed when I run the tires too high it feels darty and the steering goes all light. same with shitty tires at any pressure.
Vittoria Evo CXIIIs at 100psi, same tires on the CAAD10 when I crashed it. The only thing I changed when I built the S3 was the frame itself - every other component (full group, crankset, wheels/tires, cockpit, etc) came from the CAAD10. The instability is definitely in the frame, so the question is what part of the frame/fork causes it.
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Old 01-22-2016, 03:20 PM   #3560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
Once you know what works for you, measure everything, all points of contact relative to other points of contact, ground plane, bb and axles. You can then overlay your measurements onto any new frame build and get your position and weight distribution right. For the road, weight distribution matters but I can fudge it a cm here or there. For CX though, it has to be spot on to maximize low speed grip and balance.

Personally, my critical area is front center. I have really long femurs and relatively short arms/torso. So my knees hit the stem out of the saddle unless I have a certain (long) TT length. From there I can fudge the rest by sliding the seat fore/aft, stem length and bar reach.

Short answer: Experience. After getting one drop bar bike right, you should be able to duplicate it with the standard geometry chart mfr's provide.
I'd love to get a CX bike that I know fits me perfectly, but no idea where to start with that, plus my job is up in the air again so that won't happen. I'm fairly certian my CX is at least 1 size to big, but I chose avoiding toe overlap on a 54 over getting the next size down, a 51. People tell me to learn to ride around toe overlap, but I think I'm making-up time by removing the restriction all together and hammering through low speed corners.

I'm bored at work and not road bike shopping, but curious on how little I know:
I've ridden a 54cm Venge and felt like it was a sketch-bomb, didn't want to go straight, had to pick the bike-up out of corners, swerved left-right when out of the saddle, felt like I was riding on top of the bike rather than in it. Ride over rough stuff had a ring to it, but tolerable.
I rode a Propel in a small (medium felt gigantic with it's huge top-tube) and it felt like I had to deliberately turn the bars and when I had the bike leaned-in, bumps would steer the bike. It also felt like I was riding a big, hollow, plastic box.
54cm Trek Emonda did just about everything right but was way too upright, made me want to eat cheeseburgers (plural) so I could fatten up and pay $300 for a "fondo".
Then, back to my Evo, which I expect to feel right because it's my bike, turns by thought rather than action, "comes back to you" when you relax your body mid corner, goes straight all the time, has a lower frequency resonance over corners.

So, with all that **** I said above, does that mean those other bikes are "not the bike for me" or something I would adapt to? There is one fatal flaw with my bike and it's the lack of metal rear drop outs. The only thing I'd change about this bike.
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