the thread where Savington asks a lot of really, really dumb questions. - Page 5 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-06-2010, 11:56 PM   #81
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,454
Total Cats: 80
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
3000rpm, Valve control on, */teeth set to ~90, no change. The car usually idles around 29-30kpa, at 300rpm as soon as I hit the solenoid with 12v, the RPMs drop to 1800, 60kpa, runs rough, and the cam angle drops from ~1.9 to ~1.6.

This is promising. 1.9 to 1.6 teeth is delta of about 54* (crank) which is close to the 47* that the intake cam moves. Looks like it measures the distance from the last significant crank tooth, to the index cam tooth. So more advance = shorter time, fewer teeth. If you then multiply this by 90 (deg per tooth), it will read retard and not advance.

What I don't understand is why the parameter "Cam #1 ADV" is reading 0.
Try setting the option "Cam #1 Start" to 1.7 teeth, just to see if it will start reading something.

You may want to browse the K20 section on the AEM forums.
JasonC SBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2010, 12:16 AM   #82
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,363
Total Cats: 1,325
Default

Thanks Rafa. It was really wreaking havoc with my idle. Getting these 1000cc injectors to idle steady at anything except 11.5:1 AFR is a little tough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboTim View Post
Aem tuner no workie correctly with Gen 1 boxes.

Is your gutted thermostat in the back of the head? Where's the temp sensor? Just wondering.
Back of the head, temp sensor is just past it. It would be in front of it but there's something funkly in the casting of my head and my temp sensor won't thread into the stock hole (it's plugged on 01 heads normally but its still there). Eventually I will get rid of it entirely and pull my coolant temp readings from the AEM via an IQ3.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2010, 12:57 AM   #83
Elite Member
iTrader: (22)
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Sunny Spanish speaking Non US Caribbean
Posts: 3,257
Total Cats: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Thanks Rafa. It was really wreaking havoc with my idle. Getting these 1000cc injectors to idle steady at anything except 11.5:1 AFR is a little tough.

You're welcome. You're doing a great job.

Please keep this thread going.
Rafa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2010, 02:23 AM   #84
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,363
Total Cats: 1,325
Default

I have a reading. 0.31 cam#1 ADV. It took plugging in the solenoid to make it work. It seems you can't just trigger it with a +12v and get it to read. I'm going to see if I can advance/retard it at idle using the duty cycle table, leaving the target and error tables alone.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2010, 02:31 AM   #85
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,363
Total Cats: 1,325
Default

Name:  vvttesting3.png
Views: 10
Size:  147.5 KB

Can't seem to adjust it, though. No adjustment to any of the tables appears to do anything.

Last edited by Savington; 03-07-2010 at 02:45 AM.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2010, 03:02 AM   #86
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,454
Total Cats: 80
Default

When all else fails check the manual.
Page 166 of AEMPro User Guide V2.0.pdf in C:\Program Files\AEM\AEMPro\Instructions describes VVC.

I was right about range. The exact minimum value of the 1.6 number that you typed, minus a small tolerance, should be the "start" value. This will be the position that the EMS will call "zero".

Range has a funky 0.8 factor:
Cam Range = (360 Degrees/# of Fuel Teeth per rev)/0.8
And it doesn't accept the actual range of the cam - I guess the software doesn't really care how far the cam can go, it just uses this number as a scaling factor. Again because it doesn't accept the 112.5 number which the formula would yield, enter half of that, or 56.25, and all your degree units will be in cam degrees.

It does appear too that a bigger number is more *retard*, so think of full advance at 0*, and full retard as 23*.

Because the numbers represent retard and not advance, you need the error table to increase as error increases, and you need the 'I' factor to also be positive. I would first try something like 10% at 5* error, -10% at -5* error, 20% at 10% error, and flat outside that.

As discussed earlier keep the entire duty table flat at the duty cycle that holds the current phase. Except that at max retard, bring it down to zero. So flat all the way to 25*, then zero from 30* onwards.

BTW do this: Configure-Unit-AFR Units, select AFR Gasoline so your AFR reads normally.

Did you install the SB520 diode?

Your VVC out max should be what I posted in the other thread, the max duty needed to get maximum rate of advance.

I would set 'I' to 1, and set VVC FB max and min to +10 and -10 respectively.

Last edited by JasonC SBB; 03-07-2010 at 03:35 AM.
JasonC SBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2010, 03:36 AM   #87
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,454
Total Cats: 80
Default

Like this.
In this example I set the targets to full retard everywhere.
Attached Thumbnails
the thread where Savington asks a lot of really, really dumb questions.-settings.gif  
JasonC SBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2010, 04:06 AM   #88
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,363
Total Cats: 1,325
Default

Will do, next week. My number 2 injector locked wide open while I was fiddling with all of this. Sending them all back along with a very nasty phone call on Monday - these are about 40 miles old.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2010, 04:08 AM   #89
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,363
Total Cats: 1,325
Default

OK, folks, I need a bit of help with this. I switched injectors this evening to isolate the issue and it appears the AEM is locking injector number 2 open as soon as I crank the car. We're talking enough fuel to hydrolock the cylinder, and it blows puddles out the exhaust. I'm reloading my calibration to see if I somehow managed to screw something up there, but what's my next recourse? Send the box back to AEM?
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2010, 06:04 AM   #90
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,363
Total Cats: 1,325
Default

It appears to be fixed. Reloaded my calibration from the dyno a few weeks back and it appears to have stopped. Going to give it 12 hours to clear the fuel from the exhaust and try to start it back up.

Jason, do you know what the period of the solenoid is (the first box)? I can scope my friend's 2001 tomorrow but wondering if you've already done it.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2010, 12:40 PM   #91
Elite Member
iTrader: (9)
 
TurboTim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chesterfield, NJ
Posts: 6,484
Total Cats: 248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
OK, folks, I need a bit of help with this. I switched injectors this evening to isolate the issue and it appears the AEM is locking injector number 2 open as soon as I crank the car. We're talking enough fuel to hydrolock the cylinder, and it blows puddles out the exhaust. I'm reloading my calibration to see if I somehow managed to screw something up there, but what's my next recourse? Send the box back to AEM?
Under crank settings there's options for "inject all" or run batch fire during cranking, amount of time to inject extra fuel before starting, etc. I think. One of those may be way off for your huge injectors and making it seem like the injector(s) are locked open?

But glad to hear it's fixed.
TurboTim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2010, 04:06 PM   #92
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,454
Total Cats: 80
Default

Sav, between 100 and 200 Hz should work for that solenoid. i.e. between 5,000 and 10,000 uS. Someone here scoped it, may hvae been Reverant.
JasonC SBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2010, 11:33 PM   #93
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,363
Total Cats: 1,325
Default

Guys, we have a problem. Something in the VVT system is locking the 2nd injector (the one that fires on 0 tooth) open as soon as the motor cranks over. I just switched the #2 injector to INJ10 because I thought it was damaged. Fired up fine. Went to plug VVT in and immediately had the same problem. I am wondering whether something in the injector phasing is screwing things up.

I am going to turn off PWM#9 and the VVT control in the software once the car cools down and I can empty out the cylinder yet again - if the car runs normally with VVT control turned off we need to solve this before further testing can continue :(
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2010, 11:42 PM   #94
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,454
Total Cats: 80
Default

Did you have the same problem with inj output #2?

Inj 10 is used for VVC when it is enabled; you can't use 9 and 10 as injector outputs when you use VVC.
JasonC SBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2010, 12:34 AM   #95
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,363
Total Cats: 1,325
Default

Jason, pretty sure you have to enable each one in VVC#1/2 options to control solenoids vs. injectors. I had the exact same issue with injector driver 2, thought I had blown it out inside the box so I switched.

Also, there's no fuse in the VVT slot, so the VVT solenoid was never getting +12v power. Durr. Once the car is clear of fumes in an hour or so, I'll go back out and try again with the VVT solenoid unplugged. It ran fine, and then as soon as we plugged the VVT solenoid in, it immediately flooded.

I do not know whether the flooding is isolated to software settings or having the solenoid plugged in - I will check that in a bit.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2010, 01:12 AM   #96
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,363
Total Cats: 1,325
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
I do not know whether the flooding is isolated to software settings or having the solenoid plugged in - I will check that in a bit.
It is a software issue.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2010, 01:26 AM   #97
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,363
Total Cats: 1,325
Default

My best idea is that it is something in the injector phasing. Injector 2 is triggered on the "0" tooth.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2010, 02:16 AM   #98
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,454
Total Cats: 80
Default

No the phasing just changes when the injector fires.
Just a random check, try inj output #6.

The only other thing I can think of is that there is a short in your harness between the wire going to the injector and the VVT solenoid.
JasonC SBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2010, 03:21 AM   #99
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 671
Total Cats: 2
Default

Looks like hardware issue to me, not software ...

After Savington mentioned flooding cylinder #2 I did some digging in the software and seems to me to make the '90-'92 Miatas work (the 1710 box covers all the '90-'95 Miatas), on the daughter board AEM have connected the injector output 9 & 10 to injector output 1 & 2. This way they could implement the batch injection (software and the ECU doing sequential and the daughterboard faking the batch by shortening the driver pairs). Just take a look at the '90-'92 Miata calibration ... 9 & 10 injectors are enabled ...

Are you guys sure, outputs 9 and 10 are really on the extra connector 3O and 3P at all?

I remember AEM Engineer telling me in the past about the 1710 Miata box needing hardware tweaking to support VVT (because there are no injector outputs 9 and 10 routed to the connector) and I mentioned it here some months ago . But someone argued about my statement saying 3O and 3P are injector 9 and 10 (I have no idea whether he made any tests at all).

So ... my suggestion is test the injector outputs manually to see if you have 9 and 10 in the connector at all or whether those two are connected to pins for 1 and 2 and you either have to move some jumpers on the daughter board to separate them or you may even have to cut some traces on the daughter circuit board and route them to the proper pins.

To do a test:

1. Open AEMPro, go to Options -> Injector screen
and turn off all injector outputs there (so the software temporary doesn't treat them as injectors).

2. Disconnect the plugs from the injectors.

3. Since all our injector outputs are not treated as injectors anymore but as general LS drivers.
In AEMPro, open Options -> Configure Outputs and there manually toggle Fuel 1, 2, 9 and 10 to ON one by one.
Monitor their status in a parameter window (Ctrl-P) and check with a multimeter the pins 2U, 2V, 3O and 3P.

My prediction is that when Fuel 9 is ON, pin 2U will be grounded instead of 3O and when Fuel 10 is ON, pin 2V will be grounded instead of 3P.
So, to make 9 go to 3O and 10 to 3P, you'll either have to move some jumper or do some trace cutting and/or soldering on the daughter board

This is just for Savington's AEM EMS. Jason uses one with a Honda daughterboard so I guess his is fine.
j_man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2010, 03:29 AM   #100
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 671
Total Cats: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
The only other thing I can think of is that there is a short in your harness between the wire going to the injector and the VVT solenoid.
This statement most likely is true, but after my theory in the previous post -> the short is by design and is most likely on the daughter board, so he has to fix it there.

j_man is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Project Gemini - Turbo Civic on the Cheap Full_Tilt_Boogie Build Threads 58 Yesterday 10:04 PM
OTS Bilstein to motorsports ASN conversion stoves Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain 5 04-21-2016 04:00 PM
Noob to Miataturbo from MA JxPhan Meet and Greet 3 10-02-2015 03:17 AM
Leaky Wilwoods mx592 Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain 1 10-01-2015 01:45 AM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:21 PM.