Build Thread (FE3, RX7 TII, EFR 6258, MS3)
#561
Given a $3K budget what do you guys think i should go after next? Short term goal is a track day toy and long term goal (10 years +) would be something that might be competitive in time attack.
assume average of 350$ track day (includes expenses)
I've considered:
aero
Tubular sub frame / control arms
drop spindles
more tire / wheel
after this past track day in April i was really happy with the way the car handled, stopped and the amount of power i had. (~250whp ish my estimate.) The car was definitely less settled under high speed heavy braking and i think the car might benefit from a good rear wing / flat bottom / rear diffuser. I could also roll this years funds over to next year and do more tire/ body/ wheel
assume average of 350$ track day (includes expenses)
I've considered:
aero
Tubular sub frame / control arms
drop spindles
more tire / wheel
after this past track day in April i was really happy with the way the car handled, stopped and the amount of power i had. (~250whp ish my estimate.) The car was definitely less settled under high speed heavy braking and i think the car might benefit from a good rear wing / flat bottom / rear diffuser. I could also roll this years funds over to next year and do more tire/ body/ wheel
#562
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: 11368 miles from where i would like to be
Posts: 269
Total Cats: 92
Dear Turbo Miata owners,
If you're going to use the term AFR, please do so correctly so as to convey your intent to others effectively and accurately.
e85 is on the lean side of the combustible mixture range at 11.5:1 AFR. As in, a little less fuel, and it wouldn't run at all... it's not fat, and there is no "margin".
On the other hand, if you had gasoline at 11.5:1 that would be quite rich, and a *lambda* of about 0.78. Note *lambda* is a unit that you can use for multiple fuels, AFR certainly is not.
The AFR of e85 at lambda 0.78 is about 7.5. I'm going to assume that there is some broken convention on MT.net, with all the know-it-alls, to misuse and abuse the AFR term in broken ways, and that when y'all say 12:1 you actually mean 7.5:1.
I've not logged into this forum in a long time for a variety of reasons, but I simply had to, when I read those discussions on page 28.
Now for my 2c: Octane is a wonderful thing for doing what many a forum-expert would consider impossible. The best my FE3T has run was around stoich on 70% toluene and 30% 93AKI/98RON pump gas, with 40* BTDC advance. It simply screamed. No detonation. Loads of torque and blistering acceleration.
As you were. I'm off to scan the last few pages for videos of this thing.
Fred.
If you're going to use the term AFR, please do so correctly so as to convey your intent to others effectively and accurately.
e85 is on the lean side of the combustible mixture range at 11.5:1 AFR. As in, a little less fuel, and it wouldn't run at all... it's not fat, and there is no "margin".
On the other hand, if you had gasoline at 11.5:1 that would be quite rich, and a *lambda* of about 0.78. Note *lambda* is a unit that you can use for multiple fuels, AFR certainly is not.
The AFR of e85 at lambda 0.78 is about 7.5. I'm going to assume that there is some broken convention on MT.net, with all the know-it-alls, to misuse and abuse the AFR term in broken ways, and that when y'all say 12:1 you actually mean 7.5:1.
I've not logged into this forum in a long time for a variety of reasons, but I simply had to, when I read those discussions on page 28.
Now for my 2c: Octane is a wonderful thing for doing what many a forum-expert would consider impossible. The best my FE3T has run was around stoich on 70% toluene and 30% 93AKI/98RON pump gas, with 40* BTDC advance. It simply screamed. No detonation. Loads of torque and blistering acceleration.
As you were. I'm off to scan the last few pages for videos of this thing.
Fred.
#563
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: 11368 miles from where i would like to be
Posts: 269
Total Cats: 92
Hopefully the forum software does not merge these two unrelated posts, though it would not surprise me...
1) There's some sweet stuff in here :-) Nice work, for the most part.
2) I may have asked this 4 years ago, but couldn't find it just now: Are you using an adaptor plate for the trans? Or did you import a van or ute bellhousing from NZ or Oz? I've been working on a 5 stud setup for my truck so I can fit some big 300+ by 32mm rotors and 4 pot calipers to it. I really want to fit my mint FD trans with dual synchros and nice ratios, but promised myself I wouldn't until it could stop on a dime, so to speak. The FD trans needs the ute bell, not the van bell, IIRC. The FD and RX8 5 speed trans both have a longer input shaft, too. Not sure if long enough. How did you deal with the lack of input shaft in your T2 trans?
3) I see you're using the HEAVILY undercut ARP studs that ARP themselves do NOT recommend for nitrous or forced induction use. And I see that you had some issues with head gasket seal. I'd take 20 year old factory bolts over those studs. But, I don't have to because I came up with an alternative kit that instead requires a stack of hardened parallel ground washers to work. In effect this gives a little more stretch than shorter studs of the same diameter without any under cut and is more appropriate for keeping the head of a heavily boosted FE3 in close proximity to the block at all times.
4) Did your dry sump setup really need to be that deep? It's been a while since I had a bottom end upside down and I know the main caps and crank through are proud of the block, but not that much. I guess this gives you room for a windage tray and some gap for the oil to settle in, which is likely why you did it.
5) That Oregon course looks really fun. And the car sounds almost NA, no obvious monster torque difference spooled to pre-spool. Interesting.
Might have to check back in here a little more often. I see m2cupcar has posts all through the last 2 years while I was soaking in the sunshine, building up my collection of cars and working on various bits of code.
1) There's some sweet stuff in here :-) Nice work, for the most part.
2) I may have asked this 4 years ago, but couldn't find it just now: Are you using an adaptor plate for the trans? Or did you import a van or ute bellhousing from NZ or Oz? I've been working on a 5 stud setup for my truck so I can fit some big 300+ by 32mm rotors and 4 pot calipers to it. I really want to fit my mint FD trans with dual synchros and nice ratios, but promised myself I wouldn't until it could stop on a dime, so to speak. The FD trans needs the ute bell, not the van bell, IIRC. The FD and RX8 5 speed trans both have a longer input shaft, too. Not sure if long enough. How did you deal with the lack of input shaft in your T2 trans?
3) I see you're using the HEAVILY undercut ARP studs that ARP themselves do NOT recommend for nitrous or forced induction use. And I see that you had some issues with head gasket seal. I'd take 20 year old factory bolts over those studs. But, I don't have to because I came up with an alternative kit that instead requires a stack of hardened parallel ground washers to work. In effect this gives a little more stretch than shorter studs of the same diameter without any under cut and is more appropriate for keeping the head of a heavily boosted FE3 in close proximity to the block at all times.
4) Did your dry sump setup really need to be that deep? It's been a while since I had a bottom end upside down and I know the main caps and crank through are proud of the block, but not that much. I guess this gives you room for a windage tray and some gap for the oil to settle in, which is likely why you did it.
5) That Oregon course looks really fun. And the car sounds almost NA, no obvious monster torque difference spooled to pre-spool. Interesting.
Might have to check back in here a little more often. I see m2cupcar has posts all through the last 2 years while I was soaking in the sunshine, building up my collection of cars and working on various bits of code.
#565
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
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Converting to AFR from lambda just confuses people.
Yes in a perfect world we would all use lambda, but we dont have that.
Our AFR gauges are set up to convert from lambda to *gasoline* AFR readings. Which is why we talk about it like that.
When your gauge reads 11.5:1 AFR on e85 then it is not on the lean side.
Yes in a perfect world we would all use lambda, but we dont have that.
Our AFR gauges are set up to convert from lambda to *gasoline* AFR readings. Which is why we talk about it like that.
When your gauge reads 11.5:1 AFR on e85 then it is not on the lean side.
#567
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: 11368 miles from where i would like to be
Posts: 269
Total Cats: 92
Try? Sorry. No effort went in. I live and breath this stuff.
If lambda confuses you, you have no business near a laptop, for sending emails, or writing forum posts, let alone online voting or operating a tuning/calibration application.
Odd to use a physical gauge to tune anything from, things happen much too fast to see and remember. In datalogs, and tuning UIs, lambda comes for free. If not, upgrade to a system that makes sense.
If lambda confuses you, you have no business near a laptop, for sending emails, or writing forum posts, let alone online voting or operating a tuning/calibration application.
Odd to use a physical gauge to tune anything from, things happen much too fast to see and remember. In datalogs, and tuning UIs, lambda comes for free. If not, upgrade to a system that makes sense.
Last edited by rb26dett; 11-11-2016 at 07:15 PM.
#569
Senior Member
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Edmonton Ab, Canada
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Given a $3K budget what do you guys think i should go after next? Short term goal is a track day toy and long term goal (10 years +) would be something that might be competitive in time attack.
assume average of 350$ track day (includes expenses)
I've considered:
aero
Tubular sub frame / control arms
drop spindles
more tire / wheel
after this past track day in April i was really happy with the way the car handled, stopped and the amount of power i had. (~250whp ish my estimate.) The car was definitely less settled under high speed heavy braking and i think the car might benefit from a good rear wing / flat bottom / rear diffuser. I could also roll this years funds over to next year and do more tire/ body/ wheel
assume average of 350$ track day (includes expenses)
I've considered:
aero
Tubular sub frame / control arms
drop spindles
more tire / wheel
after this past track day in April i was really happy with the way the car handled, stopped and the amount of power i had. (~250whp ish my estimate.) The car was definitely less settled under high speed heavy braking and i think the car might benefit from a good rear wing / flat bottom / rear diffuser. I could also roll this years funds over to next year and do more tire/ body/ wheel
#570
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Beaverton, USA
Posts: 18,642
Total Cats: 1,866
Try? Sorry. No effort went in. I live and breath this stuff.
If lambda confuses you, you have no business near a laptop, for sending emails, or writing forum posts, let alone online voting or operating a tuning/calibration application.
Odd to use a physical gauge to tune anything from, things happen much to fast to see and remember. In datalogs, and tuning UIs, lambda comes for free. If not, upgrade to a system that makes sense.
If lambda confuses you, you have no business near a laptop, for sending emails, or writing forum posts, let alone online voting or operating a tuning/calibration application.
Odd to use a physical gauge to tune anything from, things happen much to fast to see and remember. In datalogs, and tuning UIs, lambda comes for free. If not, upgrade to a system that makes sense.
Guess we're not cool enough for you. At least we know your e-peen is huge.
#575
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
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Join Date: Apr 2014
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If your water is made out of acetone then it does boil around 100*F.
When you are tuning flex fuel then what do you use? Most of our engines run gasoline.
again you are just pointing out what we all know and being an *** about it. You're like the kid in school who had to correct the teacher when they made a typo. Sure you're right but it doesn't make you any less of an *** and we don't think you're any smarter.
When you are tuning flex fuel then what do you use? Most of our engines run gasoline.
again you are just pointing out what we all know and being an *** about it. You're like the kid in school who had to correct the teacher when they made a typo. Sure you're right but it doesn't make you any less of an *** and we don't think you're any smarter.
#576
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: 11368 miles from where i would like to be
Posts: 269
Total Cats: 92
There's only and exactly one reasonable unit to use when tuning flex fuel, and that's Lambda. The inverse is also applicable, but much less commonly used outside of patents and papers.
I was pointing it out in the first place because it wasn't at all clear that you actually did know. The freezing/boiling comment was to point out how utterly ridiculous your comment re F was. And now you've come in with Acetone's boiling point. Good work :-)
PS, I don't give a toss if you think I'm smart, or dumb, or anything in between. You may think what you like. Enjoy!
I was pointing it out in the first place because it wasn't at all clear that you actually did know. The freezing/boiling comment was to point out how utterly ridiculous your comment re F was. And now you've come in with Acetone's boiling point. Good work :-)
PS, I don't give a toss if you think I'm smart, or dumb, or anything in between. You may think what you like. Enjoy!
#577
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
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I have a full understanding of how it works. But if you actually spent time here you would see that changing the conversion factor confuses people more than it helps them.
So say whatever you want but all you are doing is being a dick.
So say whatever you want but all you are doing is being a dick.
#578
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: 11368 miles from where i would like to be
Posts: 269
Total Cats: 92
Don't feel singled out, no need to assert your understanding, everyone in the discussion seemed ignorant of the meaning. Excuse the use of the collective you - it wasn't personal.
As for conversion/confusion factors, Lamdba has no conversion, it's the raw unit. The stoichiometric AFR of a given fuel *is* the conversion factor from Lambda to something that beginners feel more comfortable with, when they're running a single fuel. With e85, in the US, there exists no single stoichiometric AFR number, because by the nature of your regulations and supply chain, e85 could be e50 or e66 or e85 or any other percentage of ethanol within the prescribed range. Here things are different. The e85 is required to be exactly e85, so a fixed stoichiometric AFR value is available, and could be used, however it wouldn't make sense to use it on forums with US participants. There only Lambda makes sense.
No need to name call any further, I'm aware that you think that my neck extends to my glans.
As for conversion/confusion factors, Lamdba has no conversion, it's the raw unit. The stoichiometric AFR of a given fuel *is* the conversion factor from Lambda to something that beginners feel more comfortable with, when they're running a single fuel. With e85, in the US, there exists no single stoichiometric AFR number, because by the nature of your regulations and supply chain, e85 could be e50 or e66 or e85 or any other percentage of ethanol within the prescribed range. Here things are different. The e85 is required to be exactly e85, so a fixed stoichiometric AFR value is available, and could be used, however it wouldn't make sense to use it on forums with US participants. There only Lambda makes sense.
No need to name call any further, I'm aware that you think that my neck extends to my glans.