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Old 06-29-2010, 08:35 PM   #61
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reading joe's thread is like dating a girl for 3 months and then finding out she's saving herself for marriage.

put out or we're over!
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Old 06-29-2010, 08:51 PM   #62
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This reminds me of something I saw in SCC a while ago.
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Old 06-29-2010, 10:17 PM   #63
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Old 06-29-2010, 11:16 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Thanks. It's a good engine, 8.6:1 CR, rated for 210HP stock, and that's at relatively low boost. Torquey as hell, too. Even pushing around that 3,000 lb hunk of tin, it's got decent acceleration.

Electronically, this is turning out to be rather interesting. More wiring and relays in this thing than a nuclear reactor.

I've been probing it, scoping it, and pullings bits off of it for two days now. First weirdness, drive-by-wire throttle. It's also got two fuel level sensors (both of which go to the ECU) a fuel temperature sensor, wideband EGO2, whole lotta ****. Right now, I'm stripping down the harness in situ to see how far down I can take it before it stops running. I've removed the security module, the integration module, the keyless entry module, the airbag module, yadda yadda. I haven't even found the ABS controller yet. There's even a PWM fuel pump controller (external, of course) that I'm going to have to see if I can work around.

I'd say Frak It and throw a Megasquirt at this engine if it weren't for the twin variable intake cams...
Yeah, paring down the stock wiring harness is definitely the way to go with that setup. The modern Subaru 2.5 turbo engine has a great setup, and you'd be losing a lot of potential in the engine if you stripped it down. Have you looked to see if/what you need to do about an immobilizer?

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so whatever it is will be a turbo boxer. possibly awd? hmm
If it was AWD he wouldn't be using the transmission from a 914.
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Old 06-29-2010, 11:27 PM   #65
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Now you have my attention.
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Old 06-30-2010, 12:31 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by rleete View Post
Yes! I'll send a PM for shipping addy. Send me a paypal address.
RLeete wins the hood scoop with the first PM.

I set it on top of my hood this morning, and dayam is that thing wide. It fits in between the headlights, but just.



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Originally Posted by y8s View Post
reading joe's thread is like dating a girl for 3 months and then finding out she's saving herself for marriage.

put out or we're over!
*sob* I though you said *sob* that you *sob* LOVED ME! *weep*



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagase View Post
Yeah, paring down the stock wiring harness is definitely the way to go with that setup. The modern Subaru 2.5 turbo engine has a great setup, and you'd be losing a lot of potential in the engine if you stripped it down. Have you looked to see if/what you need to do about an immobilizer?
Yeah, I'm very much on the fence with this.

On the one hand, I am definitely in my comfort zone with the MS. And I found out yesterday that unlike the Miata, it is apparently possible to swap in a set of non-variable cams, so apart from the annoyance of having to track down and purchase a set, that removes a large obstacle to 'Squirting. I already have a non-DBW manifold coming to me, and throttle bodies are cheap.

On the other hand, the Sooby uses a real oddball 36-2-2-2 crank trigger, and while the MS2/3 do support it, there's no provision for sequential operation.

I still have to figure out what to do about this damn MAF sensor. It's physically integrated into the top of the air filter enclosure, and if I can't cleanly remove it ans transplant it into a piece of tube, that may be a deal-killer.



The security system on the car turned out to be a joke. It doesn't have a keychip immobilizer, however it does have a conventional security system based on the keyless entry remote. Well, bypassing that required nothing more than jumpering out a single relay which was inline with the starter.

So as we stand now, I've removed the Integration Module, the Security Module, the Airbag Module, the Keyless Entry Module, the ABS Module, and a couple of other little black boxes. The only critical module left (apart from the ECU) is the Fuel Pump Control Module, which is an oddball little device that I took apart and determined to be a PWM motor controller. My guess is they're turning down the duty cycle of the pump at low loads. Should be easily bypassed.


To Squirt, or Not To Squirt?
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Old 06-30-2010, 12:36 PM   #67
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To Squirt, or Not To Squirt?


I always Squirt...sometimes prematurely.

Do it...you know you want to. That's what the setup was made for, really smart guys and custom applications that otherwise would be a PITA or involve spending 4 days paring down a stock harness only to find one final insurmountable hurdle.
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Old 06-30-2010, 01:06 PM   #68
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So yeah, this is an awesome little piece of kit. The Tactrix OpenPort, part of the OpenECU initiative. OBD-II goes in one side, USB comes out the other.

Turns out that the Sooby's ECU is nearly as user-configurable as a proper standalone. You can't actually edit data realtime (map uploads must be done with the engine off), as a consequence of which there's no possibility of realtime autotune, and you have to use two separate applications to do the upload/download and the actual editing, but apart from that, it's damn close. Even got a datalogger and a dashboard.

Here, for instance, is the base spark map which I pulled from the car last night:





And the AVCS (VVT) map:




Actually, this is the first time I've looked at that map. Interesting how they're not really doing much with the AVCS, despite the fact that they designed in a mechanical range of 30. Perhaps locking it down to a static advance won't be so detrimental after all...


You can also individually enable or disable all the various DTC. I don't just mean you can clear them, I mean you can disable them altogether. Rear O2 sensor failing or cat not quite up to snuff? Live in a plugin-only test state? Simply disable checking of P0037, P0038, P0137-P0139 and P0420, force the readiness codes on, and then go pass your OBD-II smog check. Amazing stuff.


Hmmm... I wonder how hard it would be to make a 36-1 crankwheel for this thing...
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Old 06-30-2010, 01:08 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Yeah, I'm very much on the fence with this.

On the one hand, I am definitely in my comfort zone with the MS. And I found out yesterday that unlike the Miata, it is apparently possible to swap in a set of non-variable cams, so apart from the annoyance of having to track down and purchase a set, that removes a large obstacle to 'Squirting. I already have a non-DBW manifold coming to me, and throttle bodies are cheap.

On the other hand, the Sooby uses a real oddball 36-2-2-2 crank trigger, and while the MS2/3 do support it, there's no provision for sequential operation.

I still have to figure out what to do about this damn MAF sensor. It's physically integrated into the top of the air filter enclosure, and if I can't cleanly remove it ans transplant it into a piece of tube, that may be a deal-killer.



The security system on the car turned out to be a joke. It doesn't have a keychip immobilizer, however it does have a conventional security system based on the keyless entry remote. Well, bypassing that required nothing more than jumpering out a single relay which was inline with the starter.

So as we stand now, I've removed the Integration Module, the Security Module, the Airbag Module, the Keyless Entry Module, the ABS Module, and a couple of other little black boxes. The only critical module left (apart from the ECU) is the Fuel Pump Control Module, which is an oddball little device that I took apart and determined to be a PWM motor controller. My guess is they're turning down the duty cycle of the pump at low loads. Should be easily bypassed.


To Squirt, or Not To Squirt?
For me, it's simple.

Squirting adds a layer of cost and complexity to reduce performance.

That's the opposite of an elegant solution.

An elegant solution would be using the stock ecu with any of the user programmable options, which are very cheap and very effective. Would really recommend looking into them.
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Old 06-30-2010, 01:11 PM   #70
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Joe you would be a fool not to use OPENSOURCE for tuning.
It puts megasquirt to shame.

You already have the tactrix, and all the programs are out there and free. Its absolutely without doubt one of the easiest platforms to tune.

I can provide you with many tuning/logging programs, as well as many different maps.
Though I'm sure you've already found most of them by now.

Subaru's are my specialty (or so I think)
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Old 06-30-2010, 01:12 PM   #71
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Wow...that's kind of nice (really nice actually)....so I'm with Nagase (EDIT: and 18psi) on this one, even though I'm sure you've already convinced yourself.

I'm new to Scooby stuff, but that's pretty cool, and you're already most of the way there apparently.
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Old 06-30-2010, 01:15 PM   #72
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Nagase, I'm sure you wrote this while I was posting my last, but as you can see, I am very much "looking into them."

From my point of view, going the MS route actually reduces complexity a great deal. It allows me to eliminate a whole ton of sensors (including the MAF sensor, which is being a real bitch, mechanically), it allows me to tune in a familiar interface with familiar units of measure, it allows me to not have to think about the effects of making massive alterations to the intake and exhaust tracts in terms of which of several dozen maps they're going to affect, and so on. It also allows me to eliminate the electronic throttle assembly, which has been bugging me in terms of figuring out a waterproof place to mount the pedal box.

You're right in that it adds some mechanical complexity. I'll have to either replace or lock the intake cams, and make some blockoff plates for the oil control valves.

Like I said, I'm still progressing on both fronts right now. The biggest plus on the MS side is that the tuning interface allows realtime interaction, and I'm familiar with it. And now that I have access to the Sooby's basemaps, I wouldn't be starting from scratch.
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Old 06-30-2010, 01:23 PM   #73
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18PSI, I haven't yet found a working OBD-II code scanner, so that might be something you can help me with. I've tried Scantech, but it won't communicate. RomRaider Logger and EcuFlash are working fine.
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Old 06-30-2010, 01:23 PM   #74
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eliminating avcs is HORRIBLE man.
read around on the forums. you'll see how big of a difference it makes. throttle response and torque down low is HEAVILY impacted by avcs.

and once you dial it in, it is night/day difference.

Drive an 02-05 wrx and 06-07 wrx or 04-07 forrester back to back. One feels like a turbo 4. The other two will feel like small v8's.
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Old 06-30-2010, 01:33 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
18PSI, I haven't yet found a working OBD-II code scanner, so that might be something you can help me with. I've tried Scantech, but it won't communicate. RomRaider Logger and EcuFlash are working fine.
Its called "Learning View"
It can be found on romraider or openecu

If you can't find it I will email it to you..


If you want to go speed density and get rid of a bunch of wiring/motors get an AEM EMS. It is one of the better ecu's for subaru and makes the Hydra look like a box of turds. So much easier to work with and less issues. This way you can still retain avcs and make torqs down lowww
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Old 06-30-2010, 01:37 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
I set it on top of my hood this morning, and dayam is that thing wide. It fits in between the headlights, but just.
In that case, I'll let you offer it up again. I thought it was closer to the mini/carbon fiber one that I've read about. I don't want a huge hole, just some additional cooling.
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Old 06-30-2010, 01:42 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Nagase, I'm sure you wrote this while I was posting my last, but as you can see, I am very much "looking into them."
Yep, caught me in the middle there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
From my point of view, going the MS route actually reduces complexity a great deal. It allows me to eliminate a whole ton of sensors (including the MAF sensor, which is being a real bitch, mechanically), it allows me to tune in a familiar interface with familiar units of measure, it allows me to not have to think about the effects of making massive alterations to the intake and exhaust tracts in terms of which of several dozen maps they're going to affect, and so on. It also allows me to eliminate the electronic throttle assembly, which has been bugging me in terms of figuring out a waterproof place to mount the pedal box.
For the MAF sensor, there are plenty of aftermarket units that you should be able to swap in that are very simple comparatively, such as:

http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/p...8-p-32145.html

As far as waterproof place to mount the pedal box, any reason you couldn't ruggedize it? Milspec connections, heat shrink, rubber covers and zipties, ect? Having not seen the box, i couldn't speak intelligently, but it seems improbable that it couldn't be made quite weather resistant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
You're right in that it adds some mechanical complexity. I'll have to either replace or lock the intake cams, and make some blockoff plates for the oil control valves.
Eh, if you didn't want that complexity i'd have recommended an early 90's engine. Know you're probably used to working on a Miata, but that B6/BP series is nothing compared to the 2.5 you have now. You'd be leaving so much on the table it'd just be a shame.
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Old 06-30-2010, 02:25 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Its called "Learning View"
Found it at the RomRaider forum, thanks. I'll give it a shot tonight. From the description, it looks like I can't clear DTCs without doing a total ECU reset?



Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
If you want to go speed density and get rid of a bunch of wiring/motors get an AEM EMS. It is one of the better ecu's for subaru and makes the Hydra look like a box of turds. So much easier to work with and less issues. This way you can still retain avcs and make torqs down lowww
I'm guessing that'd be p/n 30-1821, "EMS for WRX STi 2.5L 2005-2006"?


We'll see how this goes. I'm not abandoning the stock ECU yet, just keeping my options open. If I can keep it happy with all of the fuel tank sensors and the FPC disconnected, that'll be a big step towards keeping it.



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Originally Posted by rleete View Post
In that case, I'll let you offer it up again. I thought it was closer to the mini/carbon fiber one that I've read about. I don't want a huge hole, just some additional cooling.
I exaggerated slightly. Actual size is 25" x 10".



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagase View Post
For the MAF sensor, there are plenty of aftermarket units that you should be able to swap in that are very simple comparatively, such as:
Hmmm. Looks like I can just remove the MAF element itself and install it into a new pipe. I hadn't yet studied it closely enough to realize that. Well ****, I can find a pipe that's close enough in I.D. without having to buy a $220 kit.

Thanks.



Quote:
As far as waterproof place to mount the pedal box, any reason you couldn't ruggedize it? Milspec connections, heat shrink, rubber covers and zipties, ect? Having not seen the box, i couldn't speak intelligently, but it seems improbable that it couldn't be made quite weather resistant.
It's not insurmountable by any means, just one more little thing. I'm talking with the chassis designer about creating a weatherproof compartment in the middle of the vehicle (the center console area) in which I can house all of this stuff which was designed to live in a controlled environment.



Quote:
Eh, if you didn't want that complexity i'd have recommended an early 90's engine. Know you're probably used to working on a Miata, but that B6/BP series is nothing compared to the 2.5 you have now. You'd be leaving so much on the table it'd just be a shame.
Yeah, if I'd have done my homework sooner, I'd have chickened out and bought an earlier donor. But I've got this one, and I'm emotionally committed to using it. The guys on the Subaru Forester forum are turning out to be surprisingly knowledgeable about the deep tech aspects of this vehicle. Honestly, I'd have expected them to be a bunch of pussies, but some of these folks really know their ****.
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Old 06-30-2010, 02:45 PM   #79
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Subaru owners are either:

completely ******* retarded "HELLAFLUSH" morons who can't tell an engine from their ***, and pay shops to build/tune their car
or
total gearheads that know their car in/out and do some very impressive **** to it.



There pretty much isn't a middle ground.
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Old 06-30-2010, 09:01 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Subaru owners are either:

completely ******* retarded "HELLAFLUSH" morons who can't tell an engine from their ***, and pay shops to build/tune their car
or
total gearheads that know their car in/out and do some very impressive **** to it.



There pretty much isn't a middle ground.
So where did you fall?







j/k
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