RWyatt's "It's takin forever" Build Thread
 

OK, here's the backstory;

18 months ago I was living in Detroit when this happened...

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/gQ...w271-h162-p-no

A "nice lady" in a Taurus ran through a stop sign and right into my left front wheel. Of course, the body was trashed, but worse than that; the suspension was bent, the frame was "tweaked" and (most of all) my pride was damaged.

So, rather than give up and sign my car away to the insurance company, I took the buy-out and turned around and bought the "wreck" back and proceeded to do this;

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/0B...w299-h178-p-no

...and this;

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/rq...w368-h220-p-no

That last picture was taken in August of '12. And while it looks passable, the car is not 100%. It's a 99 10AE, and 13 years of Midwestern salted roads have taken their toll. And even though the frame straightener did the best they could, the frame isn't perfectly straight (as evidenced by the fact that the top won't close without pulling it about 1/4-in to the right.

So...in late 2012, after moving to Atlanta, I got the bright idea of buying a straight, rust-free "tub" and swapping in all of the stuff from my old-faithful car into the tub (you know, "We have the technology, we can rebuild him...", ala 6-Million Dollar Man).

So, I bought this;

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/in...w271-h162-p-no

...but then life got in the way, and the tub has sat (inside, thankfully) for over a year.

Now I'm ready to pick up where I left off and go beyond!

So, my plan is to attack this in two phases;

Phase 1 - Do some updates so that I can take advantage of some early-season events in the spring. Those updates will be to;
- Install a new 1-piece seat (so I can properly use the 5pt harness)
- Install some adjustable rear UCA's (so I can get better control over the rear camber)
- Higher-durometer bushings on all 4 corners
- New "track" tires (not full slicks or R-comps, but Rivals, NT01s, or RS3s - which I've already used on the car before)
- Install a Megasquirt (and trash the VooDoo box now in place) FINALLY!

Phase 2 - Full swap-over with some additional bits;
- "Refresh" the cylinder head (valve stem seals, minor port-matching)
- Timing belt kit
- SuperDamper
- Polish the valve cover (doing that now)
- New front subframe (don't trust the one tweaked in the crash)
- New "street" tires (have had good success with BFG comp2's)
- Clean up the wiring horror-show under the hood
- Hood vents (to evacuate under hood heat)
- New carpet!

So that's my plan and I'm stickin to it! The fun starts this weekend...

Wow, glad to see a new shell after looking at the wreck photos. I was sitting here thinking you were insane for rebuilding that car.

Awesome. Wasn't this car supercharged at one point too? I remember having my ass handed to me at autocross by it.

Yeah, it was supercharged but of course I needed MORE POWER! And this seemed to be as good a time as any...

OK, first steps...baby steps - time to put this;

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tW...=w91-h162-p-no

in here;

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/C9...w288-h162-p-no

Just got a new Sparco Sprint 5 seat, and am in the process of fabbing DIY mounts for the stock slider. The photos above are from the past weekend where I had the car up on a lift to look at the extent of the rust invasion on the undercarriage.

It's pretty grim under there, especially the sheet metal shielding that was around the stock muffler (which hasn't been in place for over a 6 months - the exhaust exits through a straight-pipe bolted directly to where the muffler flange is, some would hate the sound but I love the "noise"). I expect to "experience" tons of frozen nuts and bolts when it comes time to tear down the rear subframe.

But, before I go there I'll be finishing the fabrication of the seat mount this weekend (only doing the driver's side - the wife wouldn't last 5 min in a fixed-back seat).

After that, the next "job" will be replacing the diff bushings and installing some new adjustable UCA's on the rear (just put in the order from Anthony Woodford Racing).

Seat mount is almost complete, just some minor welding to be done then I'll paint it to make it purrdy.

Pic's when it's finished.

Waiting for the adjustable rear UCA's. Then comes the fun of installing the Mazda Comp Bushings.

Seat mounts are (almost) done. They're in the car and I've been driving around for the past week in the Sparco, but it needs some tweaking to get the height right. Gonna attend to that this weekend.

The adjustable rear UCA's came in yesterday;

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1389271340

and I'll be installing them in the "old" car this weekend, along with competition bushings to replace the worn-out stock bushings on the rear. If I have enough time, I'll do the front bushings as well - it all depends on how patient my wife is.

Time flies when you're having fun...

I've got the seat mount 90% done, just a few tweaks so that it's at just the right angle and so the sliders move full travel without binding.

In the meantime, I had to order new bolts for the rear UCA because the existing ones are so badly rusted that I think they'll snap off (not really, but why take chances). They just came in yesterday, so this weekend the UCA's will go on.

...AND...(wait for it)...I ordered and received a brand spankin' new MSPNP2!!

I'm not gonna mount it immediately - gonna do some (more) reading and learning before making that plunge. I've seen some threads on here where people have had some teething problems with PNP's from DIYAutotune. I want to see what happened there B4 going forward - better safe than sorry. besides, I'll be busy enough this weekend getting the UCA's installed and the alignment set.

OK, the adjustable rear UCA's are in (as of last weekend), along with the Competition bushings. I managed to ruin a big-a$$ C-clamp getting the old ones out - it failed just about the time that the last one was most of the way out (talk about good timing).

This weekend the MS is going in, and I'll be embarking on a journey to "Tuner-ville" (wish me luck)!

MSPNP2 Fail
 

The MS didn't go in "as scheduled" (life got in the way...AGAIN).

Anyway, I tried 3 weekends ago to remove the stock ECU but couldn't get to the dreaded "upper bolt" so I gave up. Then, 2 weekends ago I tried to take the dash out - mostly for "practice" - to try to get to that upper ECU bracket bolt but couldn't get that figured out in the alotted time.

So this past weekend I zip-tied the 'Squirt underneath the steering column in the place where the removable panel was (that has been long-gone) and it almost fit like a glove so that's probably where it'll live for the near future. Then, after struggling with those damnned connectors, I got the MS connected up, the vacuum line plumbed and the signal from my WBO2 into the input connector.

Then came the moment I had been waiting for...I turned the key and...instantly the engine started :cool: and just as instantly the revs soared to 3000RPM :facepalm: - WTF!!!

Of course I shut it down and started looking at "stuff" in TunerStudio, but I kept saying, "It's supposed to start up with the supplied basemap!" (no one said ANYTHING about a 3000RPM idle!! I was running out of time (and my wife was running out of patience) so I called it a day. I disconnected the MS and plugged the stock ECU back in and it started right up and idled just fine. Throughly confused and disappointed, I packed it all in and called it a day. Of course, now we're facing freezing rain and snow over the next couple of days, so my 'Squirting adventure will have to be posponed until this next weekend.

PS - One bright note was that I got my brand-spankin' new Rivals mounted on Sat so I guess that's a bit of a consolation.

DAMNED SNOW!!!

I know right?


This winter sucks a big one

S'posed to get to 50-ish today (Hallelujah!!). Gonna re-try the PNP this afternoon (with a datalog) to see if the 3000RPM "idle" repeats. I spent the last few days going through the MSQ to see if I did anything stoopid to it before the first attempt.

I've already emailed the folks at DIYautotune, describing my issue on the first attempt, and they won't suggest anything without the log.

Wish me luck!

I know with my first start I had a 3k idle, first I assumed a vac leak somewhere - once that checked out I started messing with my idle settings. Make sure your idle screw is manually turned down (not all the way though, just not wide open), then adjust your IAC valve frequency.

That's what did the trick for me. I had a 99 motor in my 90, BUT i was using the idle settings from a 99 mspnp and they were not correct for my car.

That was my idle taming experience. Check out the "How Do I Tune My Idle With A Standalone?" thread on Nutz and those other 3 threads listed above were super helpful. I eventually got it sorted out, it just takes time.

I just went back outside and re-connected the MSPNP with the logger running (I've attached the logfile for all to look at an ridicule me about. Also, the MSQ is attached - it's basically the one from the DIYautotune site so don't rag on me too much). This time it revved up above 4K...neat!!

EO2K, I'll look at your threads now - I just wanted to put the log and MSQ so that the boffins here can take a look and advise.

OK...I just realized two things;

1) I hadn't set up the EGO sensor correctly (read that as..."it wasn't set at all"), so I went in and change that to Innovate/PLX (I have a PLX WBO2 setup).

2) I hadn't set up the CLT sensor correctly (same thing), so I changed that to match the GM IAT that I have.

The idle is still up around 4K, but at least the water temp and AFR are (almost) correct.

OK...I've been hunting all over MT.net and found this thread.

I had been looking through a bunch of other threads and saw them talking about a "PWM frequency multiplier" and couldn't find it ANYWHERE in TS. I thought I was going crazy(er) until the thread above pointed out that the newest version of TS had a different way of controlling the idle valve. Instead of the multiplier, the valve frequency is input directly, with values that go from 31Hz to 480Hz.

So, I have 2 questions;
1) The "stock" basemap from DIYautotune has the idle valve type set to "none", and that's wrong...right? It should be set to "PWM valve..." - right?

2) I read that the 99-00 valve has a frequency of 500Hz (right?), so that means that I should make the setting in the newest TS to be 480Hz, which is as close to 500 as it'll allow...right? I'm asking because there was a response to the thread above where the person had that setting set to 279Hz. What would it hurt if I start fiddling with these settings?

PS - EO2K, I'm not dissing your advice or the links you provided. I read them all, but I'm not event to the point where I can begin to tune the idle valve when I don't even have a semi-decent idle to start with.

No dissing attributed, you are basically doing exactly what I was going when I got started. There is A LOT of info in those threads and I guarantee some of it will be noise and background info until you get a grip on the language and processes. It took a lot of time sifting through them (and other sources) and plugging away at TunerStudio before I understood what I was doing. S'all good, just don't give up.

OK, the story continues...

Step 1
I took my new-found knowledge and set up the Idle Control like so;
Idle Valve Type; PWM valve
Algorithm; Open Loop
Crank-to-Run Taper; 10s
Valve mode; Inverted, 100%=off
Run valve before start; Off
PWM Idle port; FIDLE
Valve Frequency; 480Hz

Started 'er up and...4000RPM

Step 2
Disconnected the ICV
(and after a turn and a half CCW on the adjustment screw)
She started and idled at about 1000RPM (close enough, for now)

BUT I noticed 2 things;
1) the idle in TS was showing 1000RPM or thereabouts, but the tach in the car was showing about 500!!

2) The AFR gauge (Innovate gauge fed from a PLX Devices box connected to my WBO2) was showing about 14.8(-ish), but the AFR gauge in TS was showing 13.5(-ish). I had done the AFR calibration earlier using the values from PLX (AFR=2*V+10) to set the 2 points on the linear cal to 10 AFR = 0V, 18 AFR = 4V. So this has me concerned.

Gotta quit for now, the wife wants to shop so "car stuff" is over for now...

SUCCESS (I think)!!

I finally found the Idle Valve Output Test (that I've been seeing in practically all of the threads talking about idle speed problems) and started fiddling with the settings - changing the PWM Idle Duty % in steps down from 100%. By the time I got to around 40%, the idle speed had dropped dramatically from 4K down to just over 1K, from there, it didn't matter much what I did with that value, the idle speed stayed around 1100 RPM so that's where I left it for now.

It's getting cold outside now, so I just set the base timing and called it a day. I still have the "indicated RPM" problem stated above, as well as the AFR being a tad over 1 difference between the gauge and TS. but I'll look into that later. Since there's no calibration on my (4-5 year old) PLX, my only recourses (I think) are a new WBO2 sensor, a different controller, or some way to calibrate the "system" so that both read the same thing.

Doing some internet searching and found out why my AFR readings are different (cue "Music for Dummies").

Well, it seems that the Innovate gauge and the PLX output is calibrated to different values! (Why didn't I research and DO SOMETHING about this before!!!). Anyway, now my choices NOW are to;
1) Get a gauge from PLX ($100 and it's done)
2) Figure out how to recalibrate the Innovate gauge (ELECTRONICS -:crx: )

I think $100 is a small price to pay.

Now to figure out the half-speed RPM indication.

Yeah baby!

it's idling now with the base tune from DIYautotune. I even ran for a little bit with VEAL running. Couldn't get much done because my laptop ran outta juice so I'll just chalk this up to experience and try again tomorrow.

It's a beautiful thing when your car is running!

I've been running VEAL and starting to get a feel for "what it all means". Taking baby-steps every day (now that the weather has returned to normal). Yesterday, played around with the WUE, and today's goal is to get the accel enrichment dialed in better - the car stumbles badly when I get into the throttle with any amount of gusto.

Right now, I'm playing around with the boost down at 10 PSI, I don't want to hurt anything too badly if I do something stoopid. Once I feel that I'm getting somewhere I'll take out the '01 injectors and put in the green-tops that I've been sitting on. I don't (think I'll) need to go injector-crazy, my HP goals for now are 200-220, so the green-tops should suffice.

Yeah, yeah, I know...2 months from now, I'll be talking about bigger injectors and a new turbo!

I've been screwing around with the AE settings and haven't gotten anywhere. Been searching through related threads and it seems like this happens regularly. I tried to copy some of the settings that others claim success with (of course, trying to look at those people with setups roughly similar to mine) and haven't gotten further.

Then, just this morning - after another unsuccessful attempt - I thought to look at the Duty Cycle trace in my logs and...lo and behold...I've just about maxed out my poor lil '01 injectors when I get above 5000 RPM! I thought I had more headroom than that with the (supposedly) 265cc '01s - I'm only boosting to 11psi max. So I guess I'll have to "Go big or go home".

My thoughts now are;
a) Do I put in the 305cc Supra injectors (is that enough of an increase to make a difference in the duty cycle percentage)?

b) Do I get something bigger now and just get it over with (I was looking at the FIC 525cc injectors, or should I go bigger)?

I got a set of used RX8 yellow injectors (~450cc's I think) for $50 on ebay. They're direct plug and play, which is nice.

PM me with a link, I didn't see anything for $50 even.

Get the proper injectors (ID's or FICs are excellent), do it once, do it right, never worry about injectors again.

It was awhile ago I scored a deal. I agree with 18psi though, good used injectors (sometimes brand new too) come up for sale here quite often, I actually plan on upgrading in the next few months.

Pro-tip: those crappy old ev1 525's you're inquiring about in the classifieds are crap.

I hope you're not dead set on buying crap just cause its cheap, but if you do I'll just politely bow out of this thread and let you run crap.

NOT interested in crap - if I'm gonna do it, I'll do it right. I'll take any advice that'll help.

That's good. Just a rule of thumb: anything EV1 is mediocre at best. EV6 will work well. EV14 will work excellent. If you stick with either of the companies I listed you can't go wrong. But if you score a set of rx8 EV6's or some DW's or something, that should work good too and still be pretty cheap (50-250 or so). Patience is key

Did some searching and I think the FIC 650cc injectors are ev14 (spank me if I'm wrong). then I ran across the thread from kero about running injectors from a 2013 GT500. I'm tempted but slightly worried about all of the adapters necessary to make them fit (possible points of failure?). I'd wait for someone to put up some ID's or FIC's for sale (even some RX8 yellow-tops), but I don't want to continue to beat the hell out of these '01s for too long.

Before pulling the trigger either way I'm soliciting input.

yeah if you're staying under about 300-350whp on pump gas those 650's should be perfect. I've no experience with those gt500 bosch injectors but they are ev14's so still way better than old ev1/ev6 and I'd even go that route if you can't find fic/id.

With the non vacuum referenced NB 60psi fuel pressure regulator, 11psi in the manifold = 49psi in the rail so your NB injectors "shrink" as you add boost. Keep that in mind when sizing injectors. There really is no such thing as going "too big" with EV14 injectors and a properly configured programable ECU. We have guys running 1.6's on ID1000s with better idle than stock.

I'll be running FIC (Clinic) 650cc EV14's on my NB as my goals are "moderate" and I want some headroom.

"The more I know, the more I realize I don't know."

"An expert is someone that knows more and more about less and less until they know everything there is to know about nothing."

I feel like more of the former, than the latter after reading all morning about injectors and fuel pressure and letting my noobosity hang out there for all to see ("Look on my works...and despair").

So I just ordered the FIC 650cc injectors. That gives me 2 weeks to get them delivered, installed, tuned and perfect for the SCCA EVO School on March 8! Wish me luck.

As far as I can tell, you can't go wrong with Injector Dynamics or Fuel Injector Clinic. :bigtu: Lots of positive info on this forum about both. Personally I'd prefer something that's known to work rather than reinventing the wheel and then trying to figure out why that square bitch don't roll :rofl:

True dat...

Oo, I made me a new sig quote :rofl:

Hopefully you get your injectors in time and get things set up. If your table is already pretty squared away, it should be req_fuel, whatever the MSPNP2 calls injector deadtime (battery voltage correction? injector latency? whatever) and a little bit of VEAL. Good luck man!

Matt Cramer had a peek at my tune and didn't scream in horror or laugh so I guess it's OK enough. VEAL keeps putting a weird "bump" in between 53 and 100kPa around 1000RPM that is causing an off-idle stumble but I can smooth that out manually. So, other than my sissy injectors, I think I'm good.

I should have the 650's in by mid-week next week and that should give me enough time to make things right - we'll see...

Installed the 650's today, reset REQ_FUEL and ran VEAL to pock in the changes. I still have a problem with stumbles at WOT even after fooling with the accel enrichment settings.

After a bit of reading here I've come to the conclusion that; a) I need to re-gap the plugs in case the're being blown out, and b) I have to check my overboost protection settings. I'll do that tomorrow and see if there's any difference.

Ain't tuning fun!

Plug gap?

If it's overboost, you'll know it. Trust me, it's like hitting a wall.

I'm not absolutely sure but I think my plugs are gapped to .040 or .035 - they're NGK plugs but I don't remember what heat range they are. Me thinks that might be a bit too large a gap and the spark is being blown out in high-boost situations. What it feels like is as if one or more cylinders isn't firing. The exhaust note goes flatulent (as in it sounds like a fart) and all forward progress stops until I back out of the throttle.

Isn't 11.5psi (or something like that) the default boost cut for the newer MegaSquirts? I feel like we have had more than one person get bit by that here on the forum. They end up chasing what they think is an ignition issue only to discover its overboost protection.

I wasn't blowing out spark until 16+psi @ .040. FWIW....

Well, well, well...it's a good thing that I checked my spark gaps because 3 out of four of my plugs had badly corroded ground electrodes! Yikes!! Seeing them, I wonder how the car started and ran at all.

Anyway, I put in some brand new plugs and gapped them to .030 (just in case). I also changed the overboost protection up to 12.5 psi (for now) with a hysteresis of 0.5 psi. I'm embarassed that I didn't check that earlier. So I'm back to VEAL-ing to get a better handle on the tune. Now it's time to figure out why the plugs got so weird in the first place.

Eroded electrodes are a common sign of detonation.

Beware.

I know...I'm scared...

I was using a VooDoo box before the MS and I'm sure that was a contributing factor. I knew I was treading on thin ice with that setup, but I went there anyway. Now that I see the error of my ways, I will tread carefully.

PS - the engine is coming apart in about 2 months. If it holds together until then I'll see just how much abuse I have heaped on it.

OK...time to put on my flame suit...

I've been searching all over and haven't found anything definitive about using the stock '99 knock sensor with a MSPNP2. This thread is as close as I've gotten, but the answer is tantalizingly out of reach.

Matt (if you're listening) says, "Make sure your project is set up for the Microsquirt Module", in order to get the Knock Sensor Setting dropdown to present a selection for "ADC2" as the input for the stock sensor and then...nothing! And I can't find another reference to the same thing anywhere.

Thoughts anyone?

Yeah, I don't use it and don't trust it.

Tune by ear with det cans if you want to tune it for safety. Short of that just use a base tune spark map and ensure your base timing is accurate.

"Today's adventure" is to tune the spark map.

So, I'm using the audio port on the PNP and listening to "Dem Sweet, Sweet Engine Sounds", trying to decipher what's coming through. (I think) I'm hearing detonation on high-ish load situations, so I've already backed down the timing on some affected cells. I need to get to a det-free condition, 'cause I'm going to the Evolution School this weekend and I don't want my engine fried while I'm there.

Oh joy...

Maybe I missed this but what is the temp range on your plugs? Are you located in Michigan? I don't have a ton of time but if you need a hand tuning (when the weather allows) I'll hop in the car with you.

I don't recommend using your knock sensor for tuning just yet. In fact the only time I really recommend using a knock sensor is to first make sure you have an absolutely knock free map and do a baseline reading through multiple gears, multiple loads. Then make sure you set up your knock sensor offsets accordingly. Even then, I still wouldn't use them to tune - just as a failsafe.

Just remember you'll see a loss in power gains before it will produce recognizable knock. And although I'm sure you've done this - Make sure you set your base timing. It sounds like you're learning quickly, just make sure you don't read something on the internet and then immediately start making changes to your tune. Things will get sloppy quickly :)

FAB - Thanks for the input. It's a steep learning curve but I think I'm making headway. It's like crossing the Rockies, you see a mountain that seems insurmountable and hunt around until you find a pass that'll get you through. Bu just when you think you've cleared the last hurdle...there's another insurmountable peak.

What I'm leaning mostly is that only the strong survive - and I intend to survive.

About the knock sensor...I'm not so much TUNING via the sensor, as I am trying to get to that knock-free spark map. I did an A-B comparison in the sounds between the default map and a more conservative one, and I can tell the differences! Now I'm trying to ferret out places where I don't have "happy sounds" and adjust accordingly.

One question to the "Einstein's" here on the board. In my searching for information here, I've seen MegaLog Viewer screen shots that show knock from individual cylinders. I'm running Viewer version 3.4.04 and I'm seeing no such thing. Maybe I'm just dense, but how can I get a display of the (stock) knock sensor signal? Or am I just SOL?

Forget the knock for now. I've got to get the accel enrich done. There's a bad stumble when I jump on the throttle and it's driving me crazy. I've been making changes to the AE settings, but have not made much progress. Now it's time to get more scientific with my approach.

I've read a bunch of threads but, between different versions of Tuner Studio and different setups. I've mostly managed to confuse myself. I need to understand what things change with the different settings then I can be more methodical.

Things are getting interesting!

I found this article on msextra.com that gave me some understanding of what the parameters in the AE window are doing. So I decided to turn off AE (by setting the TPSdot threshold very high) and turn VEAL back on so that I could have it do it's magic around the area of the table where I'm having so much trouble.

What I noticed was; a) VEAL wasn't making many significant changes to the table, and b) the drivability around idle tip-in and at moderate TPSdot values (200-250%/s) was significantly improved! I was hoping that "a" would be true (as I spent days running VEAL at as many conditions as I could manage so I was fairly confident with what it produced), but "b" was a real shock!

So tonight's adventure will be to re-introduce AE with some small Added ms values and see what happens. My approach will be to start with a horizontal line on the TPS-based AE graph, using small values and then slowly increase the Added ms (while trying to keep a constant TPSdot) until I get a stumble. Then increase the TPSdot and repeat.

Sound reasonable?

Step 1 - no more than a TPSdot of 100%/s (pretty moderate in my book), with a threshold of 50%/s and all Added ms set to 2.0 I get no stumble. Changing the Added ms to 3.0 and...ta-da, there's the stumble. So I set the first point to a TPSdot of 50 with an Added ms value of 2.0.

Step 2 (tomorrow) - gonna try a second point of 250 TPSdot and an Added ms of 3.0...methodical progression until I can get the TPS-based AE working like I want.

Hooray!!

I've got the TPSdot AE (seemingly) dialed in. The car is running great, and responds to the throttle - everything from light accels, all the way up to 900%/s WOT accels - and I'm a happy camper!

EXCEPT, that my next challenge is to solve a nagging hot-start problem. When the car warms up and is shut off, after a heat soak of about 10-15 minutes it will start - with a bit of coaxing from the throttle, and extended cranking - then the RPM's will go way low and if I don't catch it with the throttle it will die. I have to catch it and idle at 1500 RPM (or thereabouts) for a minute or two before it will keep a 900 RPM idle.

A bit of searching (both on the site, and in TS) led me to the MAT air density correction table. Based on what I saw in the threads I encountered, the "stock" settings in TS are a bit too extreme for a Miata. So, I'm going to play with this table until I can get a good hot-start.

After I get that solved...on to using "Incorporate AFRTarget"!

Nice work, I may be referencing here once I finally get around to installing my MS2

Agreed, props for working through the documentation and providing feedback. Not all of us are tuners and its great to be able to reference others experiences as well :bigtu: