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Old 10-14-2013, 01:02 AM   #1
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Default My quest of running Ford GT500 EV14s

There has been some info to get a cheaper way to run newer technology injectors as opposed to RX7 injectors. Yes I am aware that these are not matched, and are not the same as ID, but with the price, I figure this is worth the plunge as my RX7 injectors need to be cleaned/and or cleaned. I figured I will just ditch those altogether.

I was actually looking to get RX8 yellow tops, but after research, I came across these and they ended being cheaper and newer tech.

Sturovo had posted some good info in a different thread but I did not see everything in one place.

These supposedly flow at 627cc @ 3bar

Parts list:
Total: $182.88

I believe all 3 of those extra parts are available via ID, I just went with who had them cheaper.

Based on previous threads, I believe this will get some criticism, which is fine, I am just trying to make it easier for people who are trying to do this setup show what they need to have plug n play EV14s under $200. Best of all replacement injectors are ~$25 a piece.

I installed these last night, lowered req_fuel and it started right up. Didn't really tune them as my wideband seems to have broken, so the car will be parked until my new controller comes in.
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Old 10-14-2013, 01:25 AM   #2
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Good post. I don't know how well they work, but if they work well then its definitely a huge improvement over the EV1 junk miata owners have been using for years, and a huge help to the community.

+Props to you and Sturovo (and a couple others) for putting together this info and trying these suckers out.

I'm enjoying ID's myself, but if I was on a budget I'd probably take this route as well.
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Old 10-14-2013, 01:42 AM   #3
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I don't know how well they will work either, my theory is that if it comes OEM on a brand new sports car, it can't be THAT bad. It seemed to idle pretty good, I'm still not sure of the dead times they should be set to, but I also got to tune idle as I wasn't able to idle stoich with rx7 injectors, so i'm probably idling rich, as I said my wideband controller took a dump.

Speaking of which that is probably another thread I will be making on, the BPSX D1 controller, there was one thread about it, but it seemed to turn into an AEM circlejerk. I ordered one, I thought what the heck, I'll give it a try as not much info is available.
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Old 10-14-2013, 09:17 AM   #4
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Great post. A friend has some ID725's off a turbo '13 5.0 for sale really cheap, this makes curious about getting them in a miata.
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Old 10-14-2013, 09:19 AM   #5
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Interested in the BPSX D1 thread.
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Old 10-14-2013, 10:56 AM   #6
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I consider this to be a big step forward as better technology becomes cheaper.
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Old 10-14-2013, 11:10 AM   #7
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Good stuff. I would think if everything goes as expected this would be the 'go-to' injector for the 'rods only' budget rebuild guys.
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Old 10-14-2013, 11:36 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdexta View Post
Great post. A friend has some ID725's off a turbo '13 5.0 for sale really cheap, this makes curious about getting them in a miata.
I'm fairly certain that the 13 5.0 injectors are longer than the gt500, meaning they are already 60mm that we need, so you wouldn't even need the tophat extenders, just the other 2 parts.
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Old 10-14-2013, 11:37 AM   #9
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Does anyone know what the spray pattern is for these injectors?

My understanding is the 2014 GT500 injectors are angled dual spray pattern EV14s that are very highly engineered. If the angles are wrong for the miata head / IM then you might be spraying tons of fuel at the walls instead of at the ports. I'm not sure about the 2013 (and earlier?) GT500 injectors. They may be dual spray also which may or may not have a good angle for the Miata head(s).

I've been trying to find more info on these injectors to see if they are a good fit for our heads or not. Sub $200 for 630cc EV14 injectors is winning.

Also, I've had some teleconferences with Bosch Motorsports, and when I asked about the dynamic matching that ID sells so hard, they said it's not as bad as they make it out to be. MAYBE, if you are trying to idle 2000cc injectors on a four cylinder motor, you would get some benefit from it. 1% variance on 2000cc's obvious is quite a bit more than 1% variance on 630cc injectors.

If you're worried about the matching of the Bosch EV14 injectors, just buy 8 of these from Ford, and test them (build your own flow analyzing too?). Match four of the eight, and then sell the other 4 you don't need?

I wish I could find all of the spray angles, etc. etc. on all of the OEM Bosch EV14 injectors, but alas my googling hasn't turned up much.
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Old 10-14-2013, 12:05 PM   #10
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I thought about that, but unless you could flow-test them yourself, by the time you get 8 injectors and pay for them to be flow tested, you're probably getting into ID price range anyway. You'd get a bit back from selling the other 4 of course.
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Old 10-14-2013, 12:31 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thenuge26 View Post
I thought about that, but unless you could flow-test them yourself, by the time you get 8 injectors and pay for them to be flow tested, you're probably getting into ID price range anyway. You'd get a bit back from selling the other 4 of course.
Yea, it would only make sense if you could flow test them yourself.

I'm not an EE so building a rig to test the injectors at low pulsewidths (~2-3ms) is maybe a bit beyond my capabilities. In my ignorant thinking, it shouldn't be that expensive to build said rig. Then you could buy lots of the Ford EV14s, test them, and sell them for a slight profit (add some value?). That seems to be part of ID's business plan.
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Old 10-14-2013, 02:08 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S View Post
Does anyone know what the spray pattern is for these injectors?

My understanding is the 2014 GT500 injectors are angled dual spray pattern EV14s that are very highly engineered. If the angles are wrong for the miata head / IM then you might be spraying tons of fuel at the walls instead of at the ports. I'm not sure about the 2013 (and earlier?) GT500 injectors. They may be dual spray also which may or may not have a good angle for the Miata head(s).

I've been trying to find more info on these injectors to see if they are a good fit for our heads or not. Sub $200 for 630cc EV14 injectors is winning.

Also, I've had some teleconferences with Bosch Motorsports, and when I asked about the dynamic matching that ID sells so hard, they said it's not as bad as they make it out to be. MAYBE, if you are trying to idle 2000cc injectors on a four cylinder motor, you would get some benefit from it. 1% variance on 2000cc's obvious is quite a bit more than 1% variance on 630cc injectors.

If you're worried about the matching of the Bosch EV14 injectors, just buy 8 of these from Ford, and test them (build your own flow analyzing too?). Match four of the eight, and then sell the other 4 you don't need?

I wish I could find all of the spray angles, etc. etc. on all of the OEM Bosch EV14 injectors, but alas my googling hasn't turned up much.
2013-2014 injectors are the same, 2012 flow less. Bosch-motorsport.de doesn't list a datasheet for this injector yet, but according to an S4 forum/wiki they are dual 25 degree pattern, also evidenced here:
60lb/h 630cc Bosch Fuel Injector w/ EV6 / USCAR Connector | Muscle Motors | Bosch Distributor
http://s4wiki.com/wiki/Fuel_injectors


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Interested in the BPSX D1 thread.
They shipped it out today, should be here this week.
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Old 10-14-2013, 02:27 PM   #13
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In for awesomness. This has potential.
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Old 10-14-2013, 04:24 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kero View Post
2013-2014 injectors are the same, 2012 flow less. Bosch-motorsport.de doesn't list a datasheet for this injector yet, but according to an S4 forum/wiki they are dual 25 degree pattern, also evidenced here:
60lb/h 630cc Bosch Fuel Injector w/ EV6 / USCAR Connector | Muscle Motors | Bosch Distributor
Fuel injectors - S4wiki
Whoops, my misunderstanding. The 2010-2012 GT500 injectors are something like 500-530cc injectors, so they too could work for someone not planning on running E85, or all of the bewst.

The boschdealer website isn't working for me right meow, but the S4 wiki says the spray angle is 25 degrees? As in they think it is but it hasn't been confirmed? Also, I haven't seen anything showing what the "delta" angle is, which I think is important. If the delta angle is wrong for the miata head, you could end up spraying way above or below the ports.

I'm probably being overly cautious with these injectros. Regardless if they are perfect for the miata head as far as spray angles, etc., they are probably still a 100x better than any other non-EV14 injector. And they're cheap...
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Old 10-14-2013, 05:00 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S View Post
Whoops, my misunderstanding. The 2010-2012 GT500 injectors are something like 500-530cc injectors, so they too could work for someone not planning on running E85, or all of the bewst.

The boschdealer website isn't working for me right meow, but the S4 wiki says the spray angle is 25 degrees? As in they think it is but it hasn't been confirmed? Also, I haven't seen anything showing what the "delta" angle is, which I think is important. If the delta angle is wrong for the miata head, you could end up spraying way above or below the ports.

I'm probably being overly cautious with these injectros. Regardless if they are perfect for the miata head as far as spray angles, etc., they are probably still a 100x better than any other non-EV14 injector. And they're cheap...
I don't know much of anything about spray patterns and/or angles, but I did find this:
http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/en-US...2775993867.pdf

This is an older spec sheet that does not list this new injector, but it appears that it comes from the same family and seems like the 0 280 158 123 injector without the extended lower part. Anyway here is the part about the delta (seems to be the same for all the injectors in this family?):
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Old 10-14-2013, 06:49 PM   #16
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Well, we do have two different valves and not one big one in the middle. I suppose as long as you weren't spraying up and down as opposed to left and right you'd be fine. Probably better than down the middle.
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Old 10-14-2013, 08:37 PM   #17
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How would one know if the pattern is 'compatible' anyway? How do I know I'm not spraying walls?
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Old 10-14-2013, 08:41 PM   #18
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Hire an engineering firm.




Or eyeball it.
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Old 10-14-2013, 08:50 PM   #19
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Yea that's what I thought. i guess I'll just wait for the wideband and see how my AFRs are. It runs fine though, I drove it home from the shop and it ran just as it did before.

I'll keep you guys updated
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Old 10-14-2013, 09:49 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
Well, we do have two different valves and not one big one in the middle. I suppose as long as you weren't spraying up and down as opposed to left and right you'd be fine. Probably better than down the middle.
The 5.0 Coyote motor that these injectors were designed for is a modern 4-valve engine with cam phasing, etc. etc.

So, yea, they are designed to spray "left and right" so that each valve has it's own fuel spray. My concern with the double cone spray pattern is it's designed for a head that is feeding a combustion chamber with a 92.2mm bore. I'm guessing the 9 mm bigger (than the BP) bore that the coyote has means it's valve spacing is a bit bigger than the BP. Depending on how far the injectors are from the back of the valves, I'm worried about the dual spray pattern being too "wide" for the BP head. If the spray patterns are way too wide then you're going to be wetting walls instead of mixing finely atomized gasoline with swirly dwirly air.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kero
Yea that's what I thought. i guess I'll just wait for the wideband and see how my AFRs are. It runs fine though, I drove it home from the shop and it ran just as it did before.
Even if you can get your AFR's where you want them, that doesn't give you a good measure of how much fuel your dumping on the walls. I suppose if your AFR's are basically the same as your last couple fuel tanks full of gas, but your MPGs go way down, that would give you an idea of how the spray pattern is working.

Again, I'm probably over thinking this all a bit, and props to Kero for trying them out. I suppose I could go out in the garage and try to measure some of these things on my spare motor/head...
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