Joe Perez

iTrader: (8)

As someone who was raised in a strongly Christian home who now considers himself to be essentially agnostic, I all of the above.

Religion, any religion, is a set of beliefs and moral codes that apply to ones self. If someone else wishes to violate those codes, then so long as they don't infringe on me in the process, I have no problem with that.

I'll give you a personal example: For three years, I worked in NYC. In NYC, there are many, MANY practicing Orthodox Jews. To give you some idea, in the building where I lived on the upper-east side (which is heavily Jewish), the doorman would always hop up and push the elevator button for everyone coming home Friday evening. And B&H Photo-Video, the world's largest distributor of broadcast and production equipment, closes every Friday at a time which precedes local sunset by about an hour, and doesn't re-open until Sunday (and the employees mostly wear Yarmulkes and have the beard and the hair-curl thing that I don't know the name of). Ditto the shops in the Diamond District. And the Kosher delis, oh man... I could go on.

But no Jew in NYC has ever lobbied the MTA to shut down subway service in observance of Shabbos (or suggested that Kosher turnstiles be installed which do not require the swiping of an electronic card), or criticized their gentile neighbors for watching TV on Saturday, or protested outside a Korean BBQ restaurant, or basically tried in any way to either force me to conform to Mosaic law or to criticize me for failing to do so.


I certainly won't deny that there are people who claim to be Christians who do attempt to foist their interpretation of the proscriptions of their religion onto others, and that this influences their politics. A minority, but a vocal one. These people do not represent any specific political party, and could afford to act a tad more Jewish.

triple88a

iTrader: (2)

See thats my point. Practice your religion all you want. Dont force others to follow it as well by making laws specifically worded to benefit your religious beliefs.

The fact that it took so long to make same sex marriage is a perfect example of that. Why did it take so long? Why was it illegal in the first place?

Religion.

mgeoffriau

iTrader: (7)

The historical position of the Christian Church is that marriage is a covenant between two people and God, and has nothing to do with government. The advent of marriage licenses in the United States has much more to do with its ugly racial history than with anything religious.

triple88a

iTrader: (2)

Call it whatever you like however the end result is that there are laws based on "marriage" that same sex couples could not be a part of until it was made legal. Taxes brackets for families, family plans for insurance etc.

Joe Perez

iTrader: (8)

Precisely.

Until the mid-1800s, marriage in most US states was a non-regulated matter, and common-law marriages were recognized as valid.

The licensing of marriage was a byproduct of anti-miscegenation laws, which prohibited interracial marriage, again passed at the state level.

And while those laws have been repealed over time, the licensing systems which they put into place remains. It had nothing at all to do with Christians, and everything to do with racists.

In the 21st century, ultra-conservative Christians have merely latched onto them as a convenient tool for furthering their own agenda, as much like an SJW can't tolerate seeing someone else having fun, certain of these religious types can't tolerate seeing someone else do something which they consider immoral.

Ryan_G

iTrader: (8)

Marriage unions existed prior to Christianity and have been present in many diverse cultures. You can't just claim you made something when it's so obviously false.

The only non-religious argument I have seen opposing gay marriage claimed that the state institution of marriage grants certain rights to a couple in an effort to create a more stable and secure family unit. A stable and secure family unit being the base for raising grounded and productive offspring which is essential to society. So essentially, the argument was that gays cannot naturally procreate and should, therefore, not be extended the benefits of marriage when they cannot fulfill their end of the bargain. Of course, I find this argument to be such a stretch because gays can adopt and even use surrogates if they so desire.

mgeoffriau

iTrader: (7)

...which is a result of laws written for the purpose of keeping blacks and whites from intermarrying. Not because Christians demanded that the United States encode their marriage vows into law.

Incredibly beside the point, but you do realize that Christianity purports to be the continuation/fulfillment of Old Testament Judaism, right? So whether or not you find it compelling or persuasive, the internal logic is consistent: God instituted marriage as covenant between Himself and Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

triple88a

iTrader: (2)

Couple religious laws written against non religious citizens.

Arkansas No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any Court.Maryland That no religious test ought ever to be required as a qualification for any office of profit or trust in this State, other than a declaration of belief in the existence of God; nor shall the Legislature prescribe any other oath of office than the oath prescribed by this Constitution."

Mississippi "No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office in this state."

North Carolina "The following persons shall be disqualified for office: First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God."

South Carolina "No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution."

Tennessee "No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state."

Texas "No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being."

triple88a

iTrader: (2)

Some that protect it.

Pennsylvania "No person who acknowledges the being of a God and a future state of rewards and punishments shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this Commonwealth."

Senate Bill 11 West Virginia Freedom of Conscience Protection Act This law basically states that you can do stuff because it's your religion.... aka muslims bombing buildings because the qiran says to kill the unbelievers etc. The Christians that wrote this didnt think that far though. This attempt of this law got blocked.

H.B. 1523, an extensive law written to protect people who believe any of the following: that marriage is between a man and a woman; that sex should only happen in the context of marriage; and that the words “male” and “female” refer to “an individual’s immutable biological sex as objectively determined by anatomy and genetics at time of birth.”

Of course.. the first amendment.. which for some reason doesnt protect people that dont believe in a god.

Joe Perez

iTrader: (8)

Sure it does. Every single citation you note above was nullified under Torcaso v. Watkins in 1961, six years before state laws barring whites from marrying blacks were nullified in Loving v. Virginia.

If there's a way to transgress upon individual liberty, the Bible Belt states will find it, and the Supreme Court will strike it down.

triple88a

iTrader: (2)

So then why are the above laws still in effect then?

Joe Perez

iTrader: (8)

They aren't. That's what "nullified" means.

There are lots of laws still on the books of various states which are not enforceable, due to their having been ruled unconstitutional. They remain in place until officially repealed by the state legislature, such as the Texas law which prohibits homosexuality, the Connecticut law which bars married couples from using contraceptives, the Louisiana law which requires creationism to be taught in schools, etc.

sixshooter

iTrader: (12)

Triple88a, see the term "case law". It's the kind of things law students are required to memorize and explain.

sixshooter

iTrader: (12)

And, for the sake of understanding, cultures across the globe from the Celts to the Mung people, to the Polynesians had marriages without being exposed to Christianity.

And Moses had a black wife at one point. She was ostracized by some of the Jews and they were punished for how they treated her.

Monk

iTrader: (3)

America, bitches


It's a pain in the *** to set up, but I still love it.

Braineack

iTrader: (62)

Braineack

iTrader: (62)

Wolf is mad cause Trump doesn't want his deceitful reporters following him around

Braineack

iTrader: (62)

Dionne gets it.

Braineack

iTrader: (62)

Braineack

iTrader: (62)