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Old 02-08-2016, 11:45 PM   #1
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Default EPA Seeks to Prohibit Conversion of Vehicles Into Racecars

Because tyranny by unelected bureaucrats:

https://www.sema.org/news/2016/02/08...-into-racecars
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Old 02-09-2016, 01:42 AM   #2
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land of the free.
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Old 02-09-2016, 03:09 AM   #3
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Well, the FAA just decided to 'regulate' model airplanes, after being specifically told by Congress they can't, so why not? Surely elected officials aren't meant to have any authority over unelected bureaucrats....
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Old 02-09-2016, 04:15 AM   #4
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I keep seeing links with this claim in them, and yet the only text I have found so far in the EPA documentation that is somewhat relevant to our interests is something to the effect of "rebuilt engines being put into new incomplete cars must meet current year emissions standards."

While this definitely has an effect on kit cars, it's not what the SEMA link is claiming. Is there a better link to the actual text in question?
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Old 02-09-2016, 04:34 AM   #5
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Ripped from reddit, because I am lazy. I have bounced through too damn many pdf's, now will just wait for someone else to tell me how to feel.

Quote:
I couldn't find the official regulation but I found the page where comments were submitted by SEMA and others.
Here's the part that was snuck in.
"Certified motor vehicles and motor vehicle engines and their emission control devices must remain in their certified configuration even if they are used solely for competition or if they become nonroad vehicles or engines”. 80 Fed. Reg. 40138, 40565 (July 13, 2015). "
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Old 02-09-2016, 10:09 AM   #6
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How the hell would this even be enforced? Especially if an OBDII ECU equipped engine is changed over to a standalone. EVAP system won't work regardless with a standalone (unless it's programmed/wired up). Aside from the rear 02 which may be eliminated, everything else is passive.



The big 3:

Fuel inlet restrictor,
A PCV system
Cat converter

Race car will likely still use the restrictor, and have some sort of PCV/catch-can. The only blatantly obvious things are: No cat, no EVAP/Charcoal system



This is unenforceable.
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Old 02-09-2016, 10:20 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ndGearRubber View Post
This is unenforceable.
When has that ever stopped .gov??
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Old 02-09-2016, 10:31 AM   #8
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This is getting shared a lot with no reading involved.

Just think critically about it for 2 seconds: the EPA puts forth a draft trying to crack down on emissions related aftermarket parts that are sold under the "For Non Highway Use Only" and the first organization to react is SEMA... you know, the large organization who hosts a trade show where companies show off their hot new long tube headers and Cobb Accessports, etc.

e: did some further reading there is some language about it; however, need to dig in more.

Section 2 seems relevant
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-20...sec85-1703.xml

e2: Anyways, my hot take on it is that the reaction should be to call up your rep and engage with your government because blowing hard on Facebook or whatever about tyranny doesn't go very far. Congrats, you talked about how pissed off you were with a bunch of other dudes who are pissed off, but you didn't actually do anything meaningful regarding your concerns since Facebook isn't where regs are drafted.

Call up your representative, ask for clarification, voice your concern.

Last edited by Dunning Kruger Affect; 02-09-2016 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 02-09-2016, 11:35 PM   #9
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A little more info: Update: EPA says your racecar is probably already illegal

If that's correct, it looks like the EPA has decided 40 years of exemptions for off-highway vehicles never existed...
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Old 02-10-2016, 01:00 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roda View Post
A little more info: Update: EPA says your racecar is probably already illegal

If that's correct, it looks like the EPA has decided 40 years of exemptions for off-highway vehicles never existed...
"We have always been at war with eastasia."

--Ian
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Old 02-10-2016, 04:00 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobius View Post
I keep seeing links with this claim in them, and yet the only text I have found so far in the EPA documentation that is somewhat relevant to our interests is something to the effect of "rebuilt engines being put into new incomplete cars must meet current year emissions standards."

While this definitely has an effect on kit cars, it's not what the SEMA link is claiming. Is there a better link to the actual text in question?
Credit goes to Moti for actually digging through the proposed regulation to find the relevant text. There may be more, but this excerpt alone is a big red flag:

From page 391 -

"A motor vehicle qualifies for a competition exclusion based on the physical characteristics of the vehicle, not on its use. Also, if a
motor vehicle is covered by a certificate of conformity at any point, there is no exemption from the tampering and defeat-device prohibitions that would allow for converting the engine or vehicle for competition use. There is no prohibition against actual use of certified motor vehicles or motor vehicle engines for competition purposes; however, it is not permissible to remove a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine from its certified configuration regardless of the purpose for doing so."

My take on it:

This has the potential to change the entire landscape of what we are able to do as enthusiasts in the future, and could absolutely cripple many businesses in the aftermarket industry. That it wouldn't go into effect until 2018 only matters to those with a very short life expectancy who also don't care about this hobby/sport/industry for our future generations.

I think the most damage being done is by those on social media arguing that we needn't be alarmed by this. Given a choice, I would MUCH rather people be overly freaking out about this than casually overlooking it. The only harm from people raising hell about this is you might get annoyed by the number of times you see it in your feed. Pointing a finger at people spreading the word like they have tin foil hats on their heads could dramatically reduce the amount of outcry that IMHO should be happening in response to this.

I'm not an expert on legistlation or regulations, I don't know how effective the following petition may be, but here's the link for those who want to do more than talk about it:

Petition: Tell the EPA to Withdraw Its Proposal to Prohibit the Conversion of Vehicles Into Racecars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunning Kruger Affect View Post
the first organization to react is SEMA... you know, the large organization who hosts a trade show where companies show off their hot new long tube headers and Cobb Accessports, etc.
That's just the most visible portion that consumers see of SEMA, but this is one reason why SEMA exists, and is one of the many things that our SEMA membership fees go towards. They work on behalf of the thousands of businesses large and small in this $30+ billion industry. This regulation was proposed back in summer 2015, and because the EPA buried the track car-related portions within 600 pages of unrelated stuff, it went unnoticed until beginning of this year. If not for SEMA, it may have made it to a decision without anyone ever realizing what was hiding in there.

Unrelated but similar topic: those in the motorcycle world will recall that for a little while, the EPA tried to say that for any motorcycle produced after year Y, you could not change the muffler. Period. It's my understanding that SEMA had a large part in making that go away.

Last edited by ThePass; 02-10-2016 at 04:21 AM.
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Old 02-10-2016, 10:59 AM   #12
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Signed the petition, shared link and context to my buds -
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Old 02-10-2016, 11:36 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ndGearRubber View Post
How the hell would this even be enforced? Especially if an OBDII ECU equipped engine is changed over to a standalone. EVAP system won't work regardless with a standalone (unless it's programmed/wired up). Aside from the rear 02 which may be eliminated, everything else is passive.



The big 3:

Fuel inlet restrictor,
A PCV system
Cat converter

Race car will likely still use the restrictor, and have some sort of PCV/catch-can. The only blatantly obvious things are: No cat, no EVAP/Charcoal system



This is unenforceable.
Iíve had some experience with the EPA,
Any human with a phone can call in a complaint to the epa. the EPA doesn't show up and wright tickets, they crush cars. So you and your buds are racing around a track. Mr, Murphy thinks it's too loud, calls the EPA, if the EPA shows up (sometimes they do) they will take everyone's car that is in violation right then and there. They send cars straight to the crusher. no judge, no due process. owning a car in america is not a right.
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Old 02-10-2016, 11:44 AM   #14
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Signed and shared.

This is so un-American it makes me want to cry.
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Old 02-10-2016, 11:46 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OGRacing View Post
Iíve had some experience with the EPA,
Any human with a phone can call in a complaint to the epa. the EPA doesn't show up and wright tickets, they crush cars. So you and your buds are racing around a track. Mr, Murphy thinks it's too loud, calls the EPA, if the EPA shows up (sometimes they do) they will take everyone's car that is in violation right then and there. They send cars straight to the crusher. no judge, no due process. owning a car in america is not a right.
And people wonder why companies take their business overseas.

EPA does a lot of good, but they overstep a lot too.
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Old 02-10-2016, 12:02 PM   #16
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Another more recent article dealing with the subject. No, the EPA Didn't Just Outlaw Your Race Car

What I didn't realize, or likely just forgot, is this from the article; "Currently, it's illegal under federal law to remove the emissions-controls devices from any car sold to be driven on the street, a fact that was true long before the EPA wrote this proposal."

I realize running an MS on the street, on a OBDII car is not legal but is it technically illegal to use an MS on a race car now or to remove something like a catalytic converter?

Anyway, it does seem to be an overreach.
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Old 02-10-2016, 12:21 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bahurd View Post
Another more recent article dealing with the subject. No, the EPA Didn't Just Outlaw Your Race Car

What I didn't realize, or likely just forgot, is this from the article; "Currently, it's illegal under federal law to remove the emissions-controls devices from any car sold to be driven on the street, a fact that was true long before the EPA wrote this proposal."

I realize running an MS on the street, on a OBDII car is not legal but is it technically illegal to use an MS on a race car now or to remove something like a catalytic converter?

Anyway, it does seem to be an overreach.
Road and track wanted to be the first one to say “look your all idiots and flipping out over nothing” because people flip out over nothing, all the time. But before this revision it was not illegal to build a race car and race it on a race track. That was 100% totally legal. IMSA conti challenge and World challenge, all nasa and SCCA events are built around it. If this wording passes, the EPA can pull a tuck up to a race, stop the race, take every car in the continual challenge race, impound it and crush it.

Road and track says that’s normal? No this is not a continuation of an old law. This is very bad.

The epa could pull up to 949 racing take the books (public information) find out how many cars they have built. Fine Emilio $35,000, send him to jail for 1 year, for each car. Because it’s a wording change and not a new law statute of limitations would not apply. It would be backdated to the first car he ever removed a cat from.
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Old 02-10-2016, 12:32 PM   #18
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Essentially, it's a re-interpretation of existing law, which is contrary to 40+ years of historical practice.

Saying it's "no big deal" because the EPA hasn't ever enforced it is shortsighted. These people are zealots, and have no regard for due process or private property. And they know they'll get away with whatever they want, because none of us have the resources to fight the feds in a legal battle.
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Old 02-10-2016, 12:35 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roda View Post
Essentially, it's a re-interpretation of existing law, which is contrary to 40+ years of historical practice.

Saying it's "no big deal" because the EPA hasn't ever enforced it is shortsighted. These people are zealots, and have no regard for due process or private property. And they know they'll get away with whatever they want, because none of us have the resources to fight the feds in a legal battle.
right, that's why right now it's important to stand with SEMA. they are the collected voice of racers.

SEMA Action Network (SAN) AA2016FED1
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Old 02-10-2016, 12:39 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OGRacing View Post
Road and track wanted to be the first one to say ďlook your all idiots and flipping out over nothingĒ because people flip out over nothing, all the time. But before this revision it was not illegal to build a race car and race it on a race track. That was 100% totally legal. IMSA conti challenge and World challenge, all nasa and SCCA events are built around it. If this wording passes, the EPA can pull a tuck up to a race, stop the race, take every car in the continual challenge race, impound it and crush it.

Road and track says thatís normal? No this is not a continuation of an old law. This is very bad.

The epa could pull up to 949 racing take the books (public information) find out how many cars they have built. Fine Emilio $35,000, send him to jail for 1 year, for each car. Because itís a wording change and not a new law statute of limitations would not apply. It would be backdated to the first car he ever removed a cat from.
Like I said, I think it's an overreach but nonetheless, the R&T article (even though leaning towards the "don't worry be happy") is correct in its wording.
The SEMA article is incorrect in it's opening line; "The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has proposed a regulation to prohibit conversion of vehicles originally designed for on-road use into racecars."

If someone were to convert a street driven car into a race only car, under the wording of the propsal here https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-20...sec85-1703.xml it would be legal. Correct??

Not trying to have an argument, just trying to understand today's law vs any proposed.
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