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Old 05-09-2011, 03:45 PM   #21
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I live about 10 miles away from work, it is about the closest I can get and have peace of mind that my wife will be fine, and be able to walk the dogs and not get robbed/raped/murdered, then I would have to go kill someone. I could live closer for cheaper. Somethings are worth more than the illusion of reducing green house gases.
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:14 PM   #22
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I live zero miles from work.

But I drive around 25-30k miles a year to play.

I'm against production and sales taxes. Period.
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:24 PM   #23
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Late to this thread, responding to first post.

This is ridiculous. I live on the outer edge of the suburbs of the Twin Cities. I live 24 miles from school and 8 miles from work. I drive more than 60 miles a day out of necessity.

Now, unless the Obama administration subsidizes McDonald's wages and I start making twice as much, this is mighty irritating.

EDOT: Oh, and I'm not to worried about this passing. The sheer amount of effort required to make this work is immense. As Top Gear pointed out, it would just be too much work.
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:26 PM   #24
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you honestly think youd get paid what you do without federally mandated minimum wage? sounds like youre okay with it then?
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:54 PM   #25
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Wow, just wow

What's next? Air tax? Daylight tax?
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:58 PM   #26
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I'm a traveling salesman who drives 45k+ miles a year. I would be out of a job.


Joe, last time I checked your job was in the Europeses, Califlorida, and errywhere in between. I wouldn't call you a homebody.
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Old 05-09-2011, 06:07 PM   #27
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What's next? Air tax? Daylight tax?
I keep forgetting the Florida hasn't implemented a daylight tax yet. They'll catch up to the rest of the country sooner or later.

Technically, here in CA we do in fact have an air tax, actually. The California Air Resources Board (CARB) is that wonderful agency that likes to make life miserable for anybody who produces greenhouse-gas emissions. Cars, factories, power plants, hell- we even have special CARB-approved fuel cans here, which prevent the release of gasoline vapors when transferring fuel into a car / lawnmower / engine-driven *****. Ironically, they do seem to promote the spillage of about 50% of the gasoline you were trying to transfer, which winds up running directly onto the body of your car and then onto the ground...

At any rate, CARB is not a self-sustaining organization, so it gets funded mostly by our state taxes. And as their official task is to ensure that we all have breathable air, we have an air tax.


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Joe, last time I checked your job was in the Europeses, Califlorida, and errywhere in between. I wouldn't call you a homebody.
True, but most of that is by air travel, and the tax on aviation fuel for commercial uses is quite low. Apart from those days when I need to drive to the airport or back (appx 35 miles each way), my average gasoline consumption is pretty damn low.
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Old 05-09-2011, 06:38 PM   #28
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I work 1.8 miles from my house... living on base rocks! I drive my shitty Mazdaspeed6 every day. The more short-cycle miles I put on it, the sooner it'll break and I can buy a Legacy like I should have. I bought bicycle but spring still hasn't arrived here... still ******* 55* mornings.
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Old 05-09-2011, 07:45 PM   #29
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I work 1.8 miles from my house... living on base rocks! I drive my shitty Mazdaspeed6 every day. The more short-cycle miles I put on it, the sooner it'll break and I can buy a Legacy like I should have. I bought bicycle but spring still hasn't arrived here... still ******* 55* mornings.
Off topic

Why don't you like the speed6? I was thinking about getting one to replace the taurus.

My ex had a 2005 Legacy GT. I ******* loved to drive that car! lol
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Old 05-09-2011, 08:15 PM   #30
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Obama's vision:

Only use what you need.
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Old 05-09-2011, 08:40 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by hustler View Post
Only use what you need.
To a certain extent, I think we Americans could use a bit of that philosophy.

One of the things that I thought was really interesting about the month I spent in Papenburg, Germany last year was the massive number of bicycles. Germany isn't exactly an economically-depressed country, yet there were hundreds (thousands?) of folks who rode their bicycle to work at the shipyard every day, despite the relatively shitty weather you get being that close to the North Sea in October / November. This is such a common behavior that the yard has a parking garage specifically for bicycles, as well as bicycle racks scattered around the place everywhere, most of which were quite full.
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Old 05-09-2011, 09:26 PM   #32
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To a certain extent, I think we Americans could use a bit of that philosophy.
Well I "need" to go to the track 10x per year and Obama's bullshit environmental policy of "let enregy prices go sky-high so people leave their house at 85*f, own one car, and bankroll my voters" doesn't work for me.

Germany is an economically depressed country because they tax their people into poverty with their socialist government.
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Old 05-09-2011, 11:29 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by hustler View Post
Germany is an economically depressed country because they tax their people into poverty with their socialist government.
That's just the thing- when I was there, I didn't get a sense of economic depression. Quite to the contrary, in fact; they made me, an affluent Californian, feel slightly poor and backwards.

The town that we were in, Papenburg, has a population of about 35,000 and isn't near anything in particular. They have one large shipyard (Meyer-Werft) and a bearing factory (KS Gleitlager) and are somewhat proximate to the ATP testing grounds, but they're not exactly a happening, high-tech place, nor are they part of any larger metropolitan area. In that sense, it's not unlike many of the small midwestern and southeastern US towns which grew up around a specific industry or market.

And yet the place thrives. Most of the cars I saw were quite a lot nicer than what you'd see here in the states. No beaters at all, and relatively few "cheap" cars. (I did see one Dacia Sandero, but it was definitely the exception to the rule.)

The downtown area was always bustling- shops and restaurants, and while there were a lot of foreigners (contractors like myself- mostly French, British and American), most of the people I saw shopping and dining were definitely locals. Despite the town's minuscule size, it has a small but pleasant shopping mall, a very well-stocked OBI (like Home Depot, but with a nice bakery / deli), a Media Markt (Best Buy) which was always busy, a Kaufland (about the same as a Super Wal-Mart), etc. All the sorts of consumer retail outlets you'd expect to find in a typical American town two or three times the size, and all doing a very brisk business.

And Düsseldorf? ****- that place is absolutely hopping.


Want to know what's really interesting? Most of the stuff that, here in the US, would be made in China or Mexico, was all made right there in Deutschland. I'm talking everything from refrigerators and washing machines down to little **** like power strips and hand tools. They all cost more to buy than they would here (basically, just convert the $ to a € but leave the numbers the same) and it didn't seem to matter. Not to mention the fact that they pay 19% VAT (sales tax), slightly more income tax than we do in the US, and the equivalent of about $8 / gal for petrol. (And I think you'd be hard-pressed to argue that Germany doesn't know a thing or two about racing.)

The Germans do not seem to be suffering. To be quite honest, I kind of wish I was fluent in German. Of all of the non-communist nations, they may well be the last economy standing when it's all over.
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Old 05-10-2011, 09:46 AM   #34
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i love gov't

Quote:
Former Detroit CFO and Auditor General Joseph Harris has been appointed emergency financial manager of Benton Harbor by state officials.

A state review reportedly found that Benton Harbor's pension system is underfunded by $4 million, the city hasn't filed audit reports with the state on time for eight years and its cash reserves have gone from about $1.7 million in 2006 to roughly $300,000 in 2009.

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In a move believed to be the first under sweeping new state legislation, Emergency Manager Joseph Harris suspended decision-making powers of city officials Friday.

Officials only can call meetings to order, adjourn them and approve minutes of meetings as part of the order issued Friday.
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In defiance of an order that prohibits them from taking any action, the Benton Harbor City Commission passed a resolution last night declaring the appointment of Emergency Manager Joe Harris unconstitutional and calling for his removal.
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Old 05-10-2011, 10:03 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
Obama's vision:

Only use what you need.
^Worker's paradise according to Marx.

In Soviet Amerika, government controls you!


Joe,
Germans buy domestically manufactured goods because there are exclusionary tariffs on foreign goods. They pay 40-70% more for manufactured goods to keep manufacturing jobs in-country. It could be the difference between a $400 expense for a new dishwasher and a $700 expense. The German one might be made better but if both clean dishes and last ten years so what? It all effects the cost of living in ways that housing prices alone don't often reflect.
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Old 05-10-2011, 10:35 AM   #36
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If driving a 16 mpg truck wasn't bad enough - I put 45-50K miles a year with work - and I'm self employed. If I get taxed for mileage - I'll have trickle it down in travel/fuel charges. If the customer complains, I'll tell them to thank Obama... bunch of ****-tards.
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Old 05-10-2011, 10:44 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
(I did see one Dacia Sandero, but it was definitely the exception to the rule.)
Exciting news!





Really, though, how can you compare actual affluence just by noting the apparent economic activity? What matters to the dude on the bicycle is his actual buying power -- can the guy working a particular job in Germany buy as big and nice a house as a guy working a similar job in America? Can he afford a similarly nice car (and afford to put gas in it)? Does the apparent absence of "poor" people or older, cheaper cars actually mean that everyone is rich, or that the poor have been priced out of that area? Have older cars been legislated out of existence, thus forcing the poor to ride bicycles for lack of affordable used cars?

There's too many variables involved to simply spend a couple weeks over there and develop a case of social democracy envy.
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Old 05-10-2011, 10:54 AM   #38
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I'm convinced that Canada posions the air in order to keep everyone sick, thus dependant on their free healthcare. (kinda like how China censors all references to freedom/democracy)

I'm going to write a book about it, chances are I might not survive - they don't want this information leaked, and will go to lengths to stop me.


No joke, Rick is sick every other day.
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Old 05-10-2011, 02:42 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
Germans buy domestically manufactured goods because there are exclusionary tariffs on foreign goods. They pay 40-70% more for manufactured goods to keep manufacturing jobs in-country.
And the feeling I'm getting here is that you don't see this as a positive thing...?


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It could be the difference between a $400 expense for a new dishwasher and a $700 expense. The German one might be made better but if both clean dishes and last ten years so what?
The "so what" is that the majority of the $700 stays within Germany. Ok, so some of it goes to OPEC nations to pay for the fuel required to transport the machine, and some of it goes to other places to buy semiconductors and other little trivial things. But these costs would be there regardless of whether the dishwasher was built in Koblenz or Korea. The bulk of the money goes to pay the salaries of factory workers, administrative personnel, all sorts of people within Germany who participated in the building of the dishwasher. Those people then use the money to buy other things made in Germany, to pay their mortgages, hire hookers, etc.

It keeps people employed domestically.

When we buy a dishwasher made in China, sure, we save $300. And we can use that $300 to buy an air compressor made in China as well. All of that money exiting the country strengthens the Chinese economy while simultaneously depressing the American economy. So now, not only do we have people within the US who are out of work, defaulting on their mortgages, and collecting unemployment (all of which I have to pay for through my taxes) but we also have Chinese banks and corporations who are able to purchase controlling interests in US companies while simultaneously raising their own standard of living and increasing the value of their currency.

Eventually, a break-even point will be reached. The value of Chinese labor will grow to the point where the dishwasher costs $700 to buy, except I won't be able to afford the damned thing any more because I'll be broke just paying for everyone else's unemployment checks.


Crap... I'm starting to sound like Jason...


Maybe I'm just a werido, but I don't personally have a need for excessive consumption. I have no debt of any kind, and I tend to just stockpile money away rather than spending it. I have an old car, and old TV set, live in a modest (relatively speaking) apartment, and I'm actually quite comfortable with this lifestyle. What makes me uncomfotable is when I do go out and purchase something (no matter how trivial) and I literally have no alternative but to buy something that was made in China or some other east Asian nation.

I know, this sounds hypocritical given that everyone on this forum, by definition, is choosing to drive a Japanese car. But hey, GM decided to discontinue the only US-made equivalent to a Miata, so **** them right in the ear.

I'm being completely serious, though. When I go to the store and purchase a shirt, or a LiMn battery, or a computer mouse, or an ethernet router, or whatever small thing it is, it actually makes me feel slightly guilty. As in "well, here I am making my small contribution to the exodus of wealth from America."


To be totally honest, I kind of wish we were back in the 1960s, from a economic standpoint. Ok, so your typical middle-class family only had one car and one TV set, instead of 3 and 5 of each respectively. And the refrigerator didn't have forty-seven zone humidity control and an ice dispenser in the door. But the car, the TV set and the fridge were all made in the US, and more than likely also exported to other nations. And we also weren't teetering on the brink of a socialist government.





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Originally Posted by mgeoffriau View Post
What matters to the dude on the bicycle is his actual buying power
No, it doesn't. What matters to the dude on the bicycle is what the buying power of his children and grandchildren will be.


We, my generation, are the children of business leaders who decided to mortgage our future in exchange for instant gratification and conspicuous consumption 30 years ago. And we don't seem to know anything but how to continue down that same path.

Last edited by Joe Perez; 05-10-2011 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 05-10-2011, 02:48 PM   #40
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All of that money exiting the country strengthens the Chinese economy while simultaneously depressing the American economy. So now, not only do we have people within the US who are out of work, defaulting on their mortgages, and collecting unemployment
I betcha all those hurting for a job right now would love to get paid under minimum wage, just to get paid something.

hell maybe, the manufacturing jobs might even start rolling back here in the US.


Oh wait, no, an employeer has no say in where it can open a plant anymore, let alone what it can pay its employees (read: Boeing and SC)



at least 13 and 14 year olds can access **** at the library...

Last edited by Braineack; 05-10-2011 at 03:11 PM.
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