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Old 06-13-2011, 07:58 AM   #41
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But comparing it to living in the USA, it may as well be free.
Maybe. And maybe for you, but not for others doing the subsidizing...
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Old 06-13-2011, 08:23 AM   #42
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and you all pay higher taxes and your share of your national debt is only $16,000CA vs. my $129,300USD share.


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Like a wily serpent lurking in the dark corners of unsuspecting places waiting to strike, so is the personality of the collectivist mind that is rotting America both socially and economically. Those of a conservative or libertarian mind are aware and on guard for the frontal attack of this beast when it tries to strike using direct government schemes and programs. And we are aware of how the entitlement programs and welfare state are a direct assault on the American philosophy of individual liberty and free market capitalism. But what if this snake is attacking us from dark corners that go unnoticed?

Let’s take two big issues, health care and long term financial security or retirement funding. These are two of the biggest issues we face as people, because they are critical and significant areas of life that concern everyone. For a long time we’ve had social security, Medicare and Medicaid crammed down our throats and washed down by some liberal progressive dogma, and are now told that two of the biggest concerns we face in our lives are no longer a concern because big brother has our back. Well the bill is coming due on this scheme, and it’s coming due on state and local government pension promises. It came due in the private sector with companies like GM, which was being crushed under an unsustainable health care and union pension system until we bailed them out. And it’s going to come due at your company soon, at least as it relates to your healthcare, because prices cannot continue to exponentially go up and companies be expected to pay.

The issue lost in the rhetoric of the traditional left/right argument is not about circumstances and poor people, but rather one of philosophy. Collective systems operate on a kind of “parent-child” philosophy. Citizens are told they are children who cannot take full responsibility for themselves and instead are taught to rely on their parents. Bureaucratic systems take care of them, decide the right choices for them, and always tell them that the system has their best interests at heart. The parent tells the child that they can’t be trusted. That the enemy out there will not protect their future but destroy their future. To the collective the enemy is the individual. And the individual is you! What has happened to the responsibility and empowerment of “doing it yourself”? We are not children and the parental control system is not taking care of us!

The supposed benefits of collective parenting are based on massive superstructures that make most of the choices we as individuals should be making. The collective program then buries our potential individual participation under stifling layers of further bureaucracy. For example, why should the job I choose to have and the place I choose to live dictate my healthcare plan or my retirement plan? Our individual choice is eradicated by a system that stamps these very important personal decisions into a collective mold.

In the New Deal and Great Society progressive view point of the world, this idea of socializing benefits has grabbed hold in a tremendous way. Their dream of course is that grandiose one of universal single payer centralized benefits. The central government would be the sole provider of medical care, retirement, education and all the other highly used basics of all individuals. That is one massive den of snake creeping darkness.

Consider the qualitative incentives placed upon collective work place benefits. You cannot set up a pension or 401k for yourself with remotely the same level of tax benefits you get by doing it through your company. It is the same case with your health care. These qualitative incentives charge your employer with being responsible for your long term financial security and your health care. Think about that for a second. Apple is great at making electronics, but why would you want your tech company managing your present and future health and retirement security? It makes no sense that those things are tied together. Look no further as to how wrong this system can go than GM or Chrysler.

The work place benefits system not only undermines the basic market concept of the end user being the purchaser of a product, but also advances something much more nefarious: the softening of our free minds and individual spirits to the collectivist ideology.

Think about the inherent basic philosophical difference between someone who sees that the best is achieved through maximum individual liberty versus someone who sees the group as the subject to be celebrated. Maintaining individualism doesn’t mean you can never be a part of a group, but it means that your groups should be voluntary and should be focused on a singular mission.

Over the last 100 years of progressivism the individualistic spirit has been systematically destroyed not just directly by government but indirectly through soft kill methods that are purposefully kept hidden by the collective system. Perhaps the most egregious example of this is seen in our current banking system. Once bifurcated and individually responsible, the bank collective has been tied together into a corporate super structure centralized by the Federal Reserve System. Where do you think systemic risk came from? I mean what idiot ties the entire financial system together so that if you go down, I go down; and if you and I go down then all our neighbors go down too? And now individuals who once had common sense and a spirit of liberty look at this mess of destruction and argue all day that this is the way America needs to be. Really? Collective thinking Americans need to wake up!

Free market individualism has brought more wealth and prosperity to more people than anything ever created. “Free market” just means that each actor in the market place is conducting commerce for their self interest. The only role the government even has in this is protecting property rights and punishing fraud. The idea that we are one mass economy that the government can manipulate into becoming prosperous again is just more collectivist spew. They can do nothing to help, but get out of the way. We are not one giant economy but rather millions of small economies, individual economies if you like, that find spontaneous order in the chaos to increase wealth and prosperity for the many.

If we want Life, Liberty and the pursuit of our happiness in health and financial security, then we need to get back to doing things ourselves. I want my job to pay me for the work I am hired to do. I do not need them to do anything else like help me choose a dentist. I want my government to do the job they are hired to do, which is laid out in our Constitution. They shouldn’t run our banks or provide our healthcare. They don’t need to centrally plan the economy or set up a collective retirement program. What they need to do, all they need to do, is to make sure our property and our liberties are protected. What do you think is the actual purpose of our national defense? It’s to make sure no one outside our borders comes to take our property and our liberty.

More than ever, and now not later, America needs to take a wholesale look at the philosophy behind the systems we have in this nation today and ask ourselves, “Are we paying attention to the dark places?” In all the loud mouth rhetoric and political stumping, have we forgotten that behind the lights and personal pork, there is a wicked snake slithering about the darkness? We need to shine a light on this snake and become a people of a different collective, a people who collectively take responsibility for our individual liberty by doing things again for ourselves. Don’t be afraid of responsibility. Embrace it. It’s what made this country great, and what will save this country for the future.
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Old 06-13-2011, 08:34 AM   #43
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Seriously dude my ******* medical bills are killing me :(

I have insurance. I even have what is considered to be good insurance. My hospital trip cost me 1000 bucks and once i'm done with all my other testing i'll probably be another 3k deep.

Can we just please have what canada has already? Next time I take an ambulance ride i'm going to tell them to drop me off at the boarder.
Word. In the last 12 months I have been the the ER once, and in surgery once, and the total cost to me is still probably $5000 or more. I still have around $2600 left of that to pay off (which is now in the hands of a collection agency... ****!). I also have "good" insurance. You would think the $200 copay for the ER would be it, but nope. then you get every department of the hospital sending you bills for the portions that the insurance company wouldn't pay for.
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Old 06-13-2011, 07:25 PM   #44
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Maybe. And maybe for you, but not for others doing the subsidizing...
But the point is that its there for everyone. Just because you dont need it now doesn't mean you wont get hit by a drunk driver, get cancer, etc.

No one in this country gives a **** about anyone but themselves.

Last edited by wayne_curr; 06-13-2011 at 07:49 PM.
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Old 06-14-2011, 09:41 AM   #45
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My life is too short worrying about other people. Doesn't mean I don't care, doesn't mean I don't believe in community. It just means I got problems of my own. If I fall down today and break my back, I don't expect anyone to bill my medical bills but me.



Now to examine parallels:

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Congress imposes mandates on other entities, but gives bureaucrats the power to waive those mandates. To get such a waiver, you hire the people who used to administer or who helped craft the policies. So who’s the net winner? The politicians and bureaucrats who craft policies and wield power, because this combination of massive government power and wide bureaucratic discretion creates huge demand for revolving-door lobbyists. It’s another reason Obama’s legislative agenda, including bailouts, stimulus, ObamaCare, Dodd-Frank, tobacco regulation, and more, necessarily fosters more corruption and cronyism.
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Nobody professed to understand the question of the frozen railroad bonds, perhaps, because everybody understood it too well. At first, there had been signs of a panic among the bondholders and of a dangerous indignation among the public. Then, Wesley Mouch had issued another directive, which ruled that people could get their bonds “defrozen” upon a plea of “essential need”: the government would purchase the bonds, if it found proof of the need satisfactory. there were three questions that no one answered or asked: “What constituted proof?” “What constituted need?” “Essential-to whom?” …One was not supposed to speak about the men who, having been refused, sold their bonds for one-third of the value to other men who possessed needs which, miraculously, made thirty-three frozen cents melt into a whole dollar, or about a new profession practiced by bright young boys just out of college, who called themselves “defreezers” and offered their services “to help you draft your application in the proper modern terms.” The boys had friends in Washington.
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Old 06-14-2011, 09:59 AM   #46
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No one in this country gives a **** about anyone but themselves.
I have seen this line with more frequency lately and it is a complete load of crap. At least Obamacare proponents attempt to rationalize a bunch of their claims with fuzzy logic and math, but this claim is garbage and I have no idea where it is coming from.

The upper middle class and the wealthy give more to society via job creation, voluntary philanthropy and taxes than those struggling to make ends meet. That seems so simple as to be true on a prima fascia basis.

If you find me credible statistics that show the US is not in the top 3 of all nations in total philanthropy and foreign aid - either on an absolute or a relative (e.g. per capita) basis - I will PayPal you $20.


There were a number of market-based concepts that are far less intrusive and far less costly that were proposed to help revamp the US healthcare and insurance industry that would expand coverage, reduce cost and increase availibility. To say that a person is for the status quo because they oppose Obamacare is either evidence of a lack of mental capacity or disingenuous.
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Old 06-14-2011, 10:10 AM   #47
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You know what, they don't give enough.

Let's force them to pay 50% more in taxes.

The top 1% in this country pay 40% of the taxes. In 2008 the total amount of taxes collected was 2.5 tril (Personal income tax makes up about 45% of that)

That means the total the top 1% of people (above 200k per year) contribute is 450 billion. So lets say we increase their taxes by 50%. That would mean additional income of 225 billion.

And you know what, let's also remove the Bush Tax cuts too...that would increase the top tier from 35% to 39.6% which is only a 13% increase. 13% of 450 bil is an extra 58.5 billion.

The current deficit is 1.2 trillion. The deficit is this big because the gov't cares about you. Giving away other people's money is how they care, the more they give away, the more they care.

So let's do the math.

1.2t - 225m - 58.5m = 916.5m deficit.


hmmmmmmm. Looks like taxing the rich isn't enough...Those ******* are too ******* greedy, only care about themselves, arne't giving enough to pay for our needs!!!!!!

OH I GOT IT! I know. Perfect solution. We'll take 100% of their income...slavery is okay if it's for the good of the people.

oh ****...

According to forbes if you could loot every billionaire in the world, THE WORLD, you would only have 4.5 trillion.

4.5 trillion won't pay for the overspending Bush and Obama did since 2008.

The amount American billionaires own of that total is only 37% of this which is 1.6 trillion. That won't even pay for one year of taxes and would barely cover over spending in 2010.
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Old 06-14-2011, 10:27 AM   #48
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Where do you decrease spending? Military? Social Security? Medicaid/ Medicare? These are your choices, choose one and commit political suicide. Discretionary spending is a drop in the bucket at %18. Cuts will have to come, but we also need to increase our nations revenue so we can collect more taxes and people have more money.
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Old 06-14-2011, 12:04 PM   #49
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You know what, they don't give enough.

Let's force them to pay 50% more in taxes.
Even if you disregard the taxes, just look at voluntary philanthropy. I understand that is a challenge because the people that give $10k a year to the United Way or the Girls and Boys Club or their local homeless rehab program don't generally walk around bragging about it.

The goal should be to create more wealthy and upper middle class Americans - to grow the pie, not to treat it as a zero sum division of a reduced size.

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Where do you decrease spending? Military? Social Security? Medicaid/ Medicare?
Yes.

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Cuts will have to come, but we also need to increase our nations revenue so we can collect more taxes and people have more money.
Exactly. Pro-growth means the government gets a smaller percentage of a bigger pie. Ideally, that means everyone nets more than if the government takes a bigger percentage of a smaller pie.
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:57 PM   #50
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Even if you disregard the taxes, just look at voluntary philanthropy. I understand that is a challenge because the people that give $10k a year to the United Way or the Girls and Boys Club or their local homeless rehab program don't generally walk around bragging about it.

that and everytime you increase taxes, you decrease charity.

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Cuts will have to come, but we also need to increase our nations revenue so we can collect more taxes and people have more money.

increased taxes and revenue just means more **** the gov't will overspend on.

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Old 06-15-2011, 07:48 PM   #51
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Well I won't bother arguing anymore. Just by reading this thread, I can see a clear difference in the way the majority of Canada thinks VS. most of Americans. And I'm perfectly fine with that. If my taxes help to toward Timmy with lukemia getting proper care that his family otherwise wouldn't be able to afford, I'm also fine with that. It's a two way street. I'm happy with my "free" healthcare, great school system (how's yours down there?), good roads, transit, Canada Pension Plan etc. etc. If it means pocketing 5000k less each year... big deal. At the end of the day, I live in a free Country/city I love with a much lower national debt :P.
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Old 06-16-2011, 08:42 AM   #52
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It seems the major difference between the two is that up in CA, you all are putting in and taking out, here the majority wants everything for free-literally.
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Old 06-16-2011, 02:26 PM   #53
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Well I won't bother arguing anymore. Just by reading this thread, I can see a clear difference in the way the majority of Canada thinks VS. most of Americans. And I'm perfectly fine with that. If my taxes help to toward Timmy with lukemia getting proper care that his family otherwise wouldn't be able to afford, I'm also fine with that. It's a two way street.
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It seems the major difference between the two is that up in C[anada], you all are putting in and taking out, here the majority wants everything for free-literally.
I think that's a really interesting point that needs some more analysis. It would be really interesting to see the breakdowns for Canadian income tax filers. For example, how do the numbers compare for Canada versus ~40% of US workers paying no Federal income tax?

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I'm happy with my "free" healthcare, great school system (how's yours down there?), good roads, transit, Canada Pension Plan etc. etc. If it means pocketing 5000k less each year... big deal.
The US continues to have one of - if not the - best higher education systems in the world. Consider where most of the top [insert profession here] were educated, or where their professors were educated. Note that most of those were educated at _private_ institutions (not government run).

We can talk about costs there, but that is a tangent to this discussion as the pricing of much of the US education system is - like a lot of what we are talking about - distorted by government intervention.

Also consider that Canada has to care for a little over 34 million citizens compared to over 310 million for the US (i.e. nine times or 900%). Edit: California population ~37 million and Texas ~25 million. Also worth noting for perspective, Canada had a 2010 GDP of ~$1.34 trillion. Texas was ~$1.14 and California was ~$1.92. In other words, Canada - in terms of population and production - would be like our 2nd or 3rd largest state.

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At the end of the day, I live in a free Country/city I love with a much lower national debt :P.
I'll preface this by saying that Canada has been great about being a participant in what I would personally consider "just" armed conflicts historically. However, as Defense Secretary Gates pointed out to NATO recently, Canada and the other members have reaped the benefits of the group while the US shouldered the vast majority of the costs.

Tangentially related, the US has over-spent and over-extended itself in trying to be the policeman/protector of the free world. I would personally love to see military operations overseas - both active and non-active combat operations - drawn down and greatly reduced.

Also in Canada's defense, I will also say that they do have a lot going for them in terms of things like how they handle mortgages (the primary catalyst for the global financial crisis) compared to the US.


All of this seems off-topic to the original posts about Obamacare waivers (aka "we realize we don't fully appreciate how bad this is going to be for your business, but we know it will be bad so we're going to give you a free pass for now"). But, it really is such a complicated piece that you should consider everything as it relates economically.

Last edited by Scrappy Jack; 06-16-2011 at 02:49 PM.
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Old 06-16-2011, 02:59 PM   #54
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I think that's a really interesting point that needs some more analysis. It would be really interesting to see the breakdowns for Canadian income tax filers. For example, how do the numbers compare for Canada versus ~40% of US workers paying no Federal income tax?
It appears the Canada averages tax revenues at 35% of GDP, the US only around 25%. If total taxes PLUS private healthcare insurance costs are factored in then US averages 34.7% (in 2008) of the GDP.

All this means is that they are really just paying their health insurance premiums through their taxes rather than through lower wages, as we do. The difference is, we have the option to spend that extra 10% or not, it's who decides - the individual or the government bureaucrat.



Still looking for the breakdown of those who acutally pay taxes in CA vs. the US. Since we live in a Republic, we are supossed to defend minorites, and in the US a minority group of 2% funds the majority of all our services-Our founding fathers faught hard against the establishment of a democracy for this very reason.
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Old 06-16-2011, 04:27 PM   #55
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It seems the major difference between the two is that up in CA, you all are putting in and taking out, here the majority wants everything for free-literally.
That's a good analysis. I would agree.
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