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Old 05-24-2011, 06:13 PM   #21
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For the first time ever, I totally agree with everything Brain has said in a politics section thread. The militarization of U.S. police forces over the last 15 years is a brewing storm.
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Old 05-24-2011, 07:02 PM   #22
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I think it is a little too often that cops ask for and judges sign off on dubious warrants so that they can go shopping for evidence.

And for the record GUNS AND BODY ARMOR ARE NOT ILLEGAL.
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Old 05-24-2011, 08:15 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
I think it is a little too often that cops ask for and judges sign off on dubious warrants so that they can go shopping for evidence.
That is the real "problem."

My suspicion is that both sides are "not at fault" here.

Let's accept as fact that the suspect had the safety engaged on whatever rifle he was pointing at the cops that they are calling in "assault weapon." So? Some ************ starts pointing a scary rifle at me while I'm serving a lawful warrant, I'm gonna encourage him to not be holding the rifle any more, using whatever means are most easily accessible to me at the time.

I don't see that the officers on the ground really did anything "wrong" as such. They were in a shitty situation and they responded according to their training.

And the suspect? Well, maybe answering the door with a machine gun isn't a particularly good idea when the voice on the other side is shouting "Police! Search warrant!" Was he totally within his rights? Yeah. Does that make what he did a particularly intelligent thing? Not so much.

And yeah, he was a Marine and an Iraq war vet. So that automatically tips the sympathy card. On the other hand, living here in SD I know a lot of Marines. Most of 'em are fine, upstanding folks who I'd trust with my life. A few are ********* and criminals.

Just like the rest of humanity.

Are blanket warrants "too easy" to get? Maybe. Is that a "bad thing"? Depends on where you stand vis-a-vis civil liberty (which, at the extreme, equals anarchy) vs. laws and law enforcement (which, at the extreme, equals dictatorship.) There's no question that the guy was a drug dealer- I mean, just look at his name. Jose Guerena? Dude's gotta be running drugs.
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Old 05-25-2011, 03:18 AM   #24
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Assault rifle my ******* ***. Bullshit.

So he pointed that assault rifle that, you know, all Marines are issued until they die.


The version I read was that some trigger happy **** in the AZ SWAT team popped one off. A bit of wood hit another ********'s shield and they went straight Blitzkrieg. Corrupt assedness can only cover so far.

He bled to death, face down. Paramedics were not permitted to help until an hour (after he had died) later. He screamed, prayed, pleaded, and moaned while dying. That will be one tough 4 year old to hear such death screams.

Or a serial rapist. Go USA Hi 5!!

Last edited by r808; 05-25-2011 at 03:32 AM.
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Old 05-25-2011, 04:35 AM   #25
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I agree that this is bullshit. They could have waited a couple of hours and arrested him checking his mail. No in this police state we live in they peek in your window while your sleeping and shoot to kill if you answer the door with a gun. Amercom **** Yea
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Old 05-25-2011, 04:37 AM   #26
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i can't stand hearing about injustice like this. it happens alot more than you think.
joe, don't know what to say. i think a discussion could spring up about the holocaust and you would argue that it had merit.
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Old 05-25-2011, 05:15 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
I think it is a little too often that cops ask for and judges sign off on dubious warrants so that they can go shopping for evidence.

And for the record GUNS AND BODY ARMOR ARE NOT ILLEGAL.
Agreed.

This is ridiculous. Unannounced armed men in my yard, wife screaming, child in the house.... I am arming myself.

I don't give a damn if they find drugs, the end DOES NOT justify the means.

I'll wait for more information to come of this. But one thing for sure, I know for a fact it does not take an hour to clear a house. 60 shots or not, a person deserves medical attention and allow them the dignity of not dying on the floor in front of their family.
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Old 05-25-2011, 05:19 AM   #28
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There are some points I'd really like to bring up here, but we simply don't have the facts yet...and we may never get them.

I don't trust the news media AT ALL anymore. I've been through a couple things and seen first hand what happened, and the news media gets one side of the story and runs with it, swaying all kinds of public opinion in its wake.

I will say that if someone points a gun at me, I'm shooting. I'm not waiting to find out where the selector switch is pointing. If someone is pointing a weapon at me from a second story window, what other option do I have, besides retreat? But again, this is just in general since we don't have the facts.
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Old 05-25-2011, 08:32 AM   #29
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So maybe you're suggesting in the matter of police issues, they should have just knocked on the door and served the warrant? Family should be lucky they didnt have dogs as well, cause those would have been put down too.
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Old 05-25-2011, 09:07 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
That is the real "problem."

My suspicion is that both sides are "not at fault" here.

Let's accept as fact that the suspect had the safety engaged on whatever rifle he was pointing at the cops that they are calling in "assault weapon." So? Some ************ starts pointing a scary rifle at me while I'm serving a lawful warrant, I'm gonna encourage him to not be holding the rifle any more, using whatever means are most easily accessible to me at the time.

I don't see that the officers on the ground really did anything "wrong" as such. They were in a shitty situation and they responded according to their training.

And the suspect? Well, maybe answering the door with a machine gun isn't a particularly good idea when the voice on the other side is shouting "Police! Search warrant!" Was he totally within his rights? Yeah. Does that make what he did a particularly intelligent thing? Not so much.

And yeah, he was a Marine and an Iraq war vet. So that automatically tips the sympathy card. On the other hand, living here in SD I know a lot of Marines. Most of 'em are fine, upstanding folks who I'd trust with my life. A few are ********* and criminals.

Just like the rest of humanity.

Are blanket warrants "too easy" to get? Maybe. Is that a "bad thing"? Depends on where you stand vis-a-vis civil liberty (which, at the extreme, equals anarchy) vs. laws and law enforcement (which, at the extreme, equals dictatorship.) There's no question that the guy was a drug dealer- I mean, just look at his name. Jose Guerena? Dude's gotta be running drugs.
But that is all speculation. We don't know that he "answered the door" (if you can answer a door that has been kicked in) with the rifle shouldered, nor do we know if the police announced their presence and intent like they should have. Also, with it being in the location it was in, it is understandable for home owners to be a bit more suspicious of people snooping around their home, and the law enforcement should have understood this and maybe not have done things the way they did.

I don't even think the warrant was justifiable. How in the hell do you issue a multi home warrant. That sound like sweeping of a neighborhood to me. Better have some damn good evidence before you come kicking down my door and forcing your way in with guns drawn. I might have to end up shot too.
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Old 05-25-2011, 09:24 AM   #31
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We have an unusal justice system compared to the rest of the world: Guilty until presumed innocent beyond a preponduerous of evidence.

oh wait, now we are in line with the NWO.

Last edited by olderguy; 05-25-2011 at 10:01 AM.
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Old 05-25-2011, 07:09 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viperormiata View Post
agreed.

This is ridiculous. Unannounced armed men in my yard, wife screaming, child in the house.... I am arming myself.

I don't give a damn if they find drugs, the end does not justify the means.

I'll wait for more information to come of this. But one thing for sure, i know for a fact it does not take an hour to clear a house. 60 shots or not, a person deserves medical attention and allow them the dignity of not dying on the floor in front of their family.
+1
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Old 05-25-2011, 08:25 PM   #33
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You killed my father, prepare to die.
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Old 05-25-2011, 11:49 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
We have an unusal justice system compared to the rest of the world: Guilty until presumed innocent beyond a preponduerous of evidence.

oh wait, now we are in line with the NWO.
*preponderance

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Old 05-26-2011, 01:03 AM   #35
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joe, don't know what to say. i think a discussion could spring up about the holocaust and you would argue that it had merit.
Figures you'd fall for that Jewish claptrap. You probably believe that we actually landed on the moon, too.



In all seriousness, yes, I probably would argue if whatever was being said about the holocaust was based on nothing more than sensationalist reporting.

(And I hope everyone understands that my implication that everybody with a Hispanic surname must be a drug dealer. This is our version of calling each other *****.)



Quote:
Originally Posted by NA6C-Guy View Post
But that is all speculation.
And that's my point.

Step back for a moment and consider this one question separately from everything else: Does it seem likely that a combat-veteran Marine, rousted out of bed at night by "intruders", would fetch his rifle and answer the door with it, but "forget" to disengage the safety and not shoulder the weapon?

It seems improbable to me, but then I wasn't there, and neither was anybody else on this forum. We're all arguing based on a very loose set of "facts" as delivered by a couple of news reports. But to address your question that "We don't know that he "answered the door" with the rifle shouldered", the news report in the original post noted that "Guerena grabbed his assault rifle and was pointing it at the SWAT team".

I guess it's possible that he was pointing his rifle at the police from the hip, although that doesn't sound like the sort of technique that is taught at infantry training.
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Old 05-26-2011, 01:06 PM   #36
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Step back for a moment and consider this one question separately from everything else: Does it seem likely that a combat-veteran Marine, rousted out of bed at night by "intruders", would fetch his rifle and answer the door with it, but "forget" to disengage the safety and not shoulder the weapon?

did he "answer" the door? another assumption? i see your point though, but you need to put some sort of * or (sarcasm) at the end of your sentences because they read different than you intended. figured what you meant about the guys last name since yours is perez, but couldn't understand your statement about the victim. just sounded like you were making your own assumptions. even your explanation about the name doesn't really make sense as it stands. would have been easier and made more sense to say "look at my name, figure it out!" obviously if we were all talking face to face or maybe even on a phone, we could decipher what meant by your gestures or even how you said it, but it's lost on a computer screen and text.
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Old 05-26-2011, 01:59 PM   #37
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The point I was trying to make, and perhaps I was too subtle, was not about this particular incident, or about the holocaust, or any other one specific thing.

The point is that people need to think about the context of what they read.

Seeing everybody here get all hysterical and start parading around with armbands on after reading one sketchy article, I'd think you were a bunch of old women getting riled up watching Fox News.
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Old 05-26-2011, 02:13 PM   #38
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Better than a bunch of hippies getting riled up watching all of george soro's outlets?
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Old 05-26-2011, 02:42 PM   #39
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soros is the devil. great, this post is now "on the grid" i mean he is devilshly handsome. don't target me tri-lateral coalition!
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Old 05-26-2011, 02:45 PM   #40
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maybe we should just talk about why kindergarteners are getting ipads now?!
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