The trouble with democracy... - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Current Events, News, Politics Keep the politics here.

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-08-2012, 04:40 AM   #1
Elite Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,454
Total Cats: 80
Default The trouble with democracy...

Branching off from another thread...

It's taken for granted by many that democracy is best, and that the USA is supposed to be one.

The political debates all center around "the gov't should do this, do that", which is really about the majority (or sometimes minority), imposing its will on everyone else. You can see the circus that is the RNC and the DNC. This is supposed to be "the will of the people"?

We should all question the very idea of democracy wherein on every issue of our lives the majority set the rules.
The problem is that on many issues, each of us is in the minority.

51% think ultralow speed limits are good? 55 mph limits! 51% think marijuana is bad? Jail for users! And so on.
You have to ask, why does the majority have to rule over the minority on every issue?

The alternative to democracy is NOT dictatorship. The right alternative to democracy is a system based on freedom:

Beyond democracy

Quote:
Why democracy does not lead to solidarity, prosperity and liberty but to unrest, runaway spending and a tyrannical government.

Democracy is widely considered to be the best political system imaginable. Indeed, it is no exaggeration to say that democracy has become a secular religion. The largest political faith on earth. To criticize the democratic ideal is to risk being regarded an enemy of civilized society.

Yet that is precisely what Karel Beckman and Frank Karsten propose to do. In this provocative and highly readable book, they tackle the last political taboo: the idea that our salvation lies in democracy.

Read the first chapter
With simple, straightforward arguments they show that democracy, in contrast to popular belief, does not lead to freedom, civilization, prosperity, peace, and the rule of law, but the opposite: to loss of freedom, social conflict, runaway government spending, a lower standard of living and the subversion of individual rights.

In just 97 pages they debunk 13 great myths with which democracy is usually defended. What is more, they offer an appealing alternative: a society based on individual freedom and voluntary social relations.
$0.99 Kindle edition:
Beyond Democracy: Karel Beckman,Frank Karsten: Amazon.com: Kindle Store Beyond Democracy: Karel Beckman,Frank Karsten: Amazon.com: Kindle Store
JasonC SBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 08:09 AM   #2
Slowest Progress Ever
iTrader: (26)
 
thirdgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: The coal ridden hills of Pennsylvania
Posts: 5,808
Total Cats: 183
Default

The problem I have with democracy is that the majority of voters are too worried about "liking" stuff on facebook. I call these people "the blind", because to them, the presidential election is just another episode of American idol. I love it when people like this reply with "I vote because it's my right as an American". So is lighting yourself on fire...it doesn't mean it's a good idea.
thirdgen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 11:56 AM   #3
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,872
Total Cats: 1,790
Default

The trouble with democracy:

Chicago Bled Dry by Striking Teachers’ Unions - By John Fund - The Corner - National Review Online

Quote:
Chicago teachers have the highest average salary of any city at $76,000 a year before benefits. The average family in the city only earns $47,000 a year. Yet the teachers rejected a 16 percent salary increase over four years at a time when most families are not getting any raises or are looking for work.

...

Just 15 percent of fourth graders are proficient in reading and only 56 percent of students who enter their freshman year of high school wind up graduating.

Maybe I suggest a book for you Joe?

Amazon Amazon

Quote:
The demon is a mob, and the mob is demonic. The Democratic Party activates mobs, depends on mobs, coddles mobs, publicizes and celebrates mobs—it is the mob. Sweeping in its scope and relentless in its argument, Demonic explains the peculiarities of liberals as standard groupthink behavior. To understand mobs is to understand liberals.
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 12:58 PM   #4
Elite Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,454
Total Cats: 80
Default

Democracy is mob-ocracy. As many here have noted, the mob is ill-informed and easily propagandized, by the people in power, no less. So democracy degenerates into rule by the ruling elite.
JasonC SBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 02:16 PM   #5
Moderator
iTrader: (11)
 
sixshooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 15,669
Total Cats: 1,561
Default

Unfortunately, our constitutional representative republic is devolving into a democracy. Democracy is the antithesis of individual rights. It is something to be feared. And it has been pushed in that direction by certain ideological groups from shortly after the inception of the Constitution.

The progressives pushed the Seventeenth Amendment to the US Constitution through under Woodrow Wilson in 1913, thereby stripping the state legislatures of their voice in Congress. This devolved the bi-cameral Congress into two groups beholden to essentially the same constituent body, the mob of open majority, as opposed to one house of Congress being elected as representatives of the people and the other house of Congress being appointed to serve the interests of the state legislatures. This move to usurp the federal government's accountability to the various states was part of the progressives' plan to further undermine states' rights and push toward mob rule.
sixshooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 02:23 PM   #6
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,872
Total Cats: 1,790
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post

IB4 Bob calls you a facist.
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 04:15 PM   #7
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,872
Total Cats: 1,790
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
Democracy is mob-ocracy. As many here have noted, the mob is ill-informed and easily propagandized, by the people in power, no less. So democracy degenerates into rule by the ruling elite.

First I was like:
Quote:
Watts said the strike had messed her day up and forced her to stay away from her temporary job as a machinist so that she could pick up her daughter, Trinity, and son, Jayvon, when the school closes early at 12:30 p.m.

“I might be losing my job over this,” she said. “As long as they’re on strike, I can’t work either. I’m not getting paid, either.”


then i was like:
Quote:
Still, Watts blamed the mayor, not the teachers.

"The teachers are standing up for what they believe in, and I have to respect that,” she said. “I don’t want my children to be taught in classes that are too big or by teachers who aren’t being paid enough.”
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 04:32 PM   #8
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,872
Total Cats: 1,790
Default




- Ben Franklin
Attached Thumbnails
The trouble with democracy...-wolfsheep.jpg  
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 04:33 PM   #9
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,872
Total Cats: 1,790
Default

Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 08:39 PM   #10
Elite Member
iTrader: (2)
 
fooger03's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 4,132
Total Cats: 187
Default

I vote for:

Everyone gets one vote automatically

The moment you pay $5,000 in taxes (less receipts from government), you get another vote.

Another at $10,000, then $20,000, then $40,000, then $80,000, then $160,000

So someone who pays $175,000 in total TAXES MINUS RECEIPTS gets 7 votes.

It's genious I tell you.

The masses still have the power to overwhelm the wealthy, but it becomes much harder when the high income earners have much more say over where there money goes than the low income earners.

opcorn:
fooger03 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 09:07 PM   #11
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Anacortes, WA
Posts: 2,476
Total Cats: 114
Default

We are a Liberal Democracy. The definition of which is a Democracy with Safeguards and rules in place for the preservation of human rights and civil liberties from the tyranny of the masses as might be found in a direct democracy.

Several concepts of our government protect us from being a pure democracy such as

1) Representative democracy as appose to direct democracy
2) Seperation of powers
3) Branches of government
4) Constitution with a Bill of Rights
5) Rule of Law

I will leave out Republic because I think the concept of Republic which also describes us because of our states rights does next to nothing to preserve liberty and more often preserves tyranny such as it tried to do with slavery for instance. After all The Peoples Republic of China, and The United Soviet Socialist Republic are also republics. It's not like it is a concept of our government to be proud of for it's awsomness.
bbundy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 09:19 PM   #12
Elite Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 3,325
Total Cats: 235
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fooger03 View Post
I vote for:

Everyone gets one vote automatically

The moment you pay $5,000 in taxes (less receipts from government), you get another vote.

Another at $10,000, then $20,000, then $40,000, then $80,000, then $160,000

So someone who pays $175,000 in total TAXES MINUS RECEIPTS gets 7 votes.

It's genious I tell you.

The masses still have the power to overwhelm the wealthy, but it becomes much harder when the high income earners have much more say over where there money goes than the low income earners.

opcorn:
lol. Have you not been paying attention to politics lately? The wealthy in this nation are in no danger of not having their views represented.
thenuge26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2012, 02:35 AM   #13
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Delicious and Moist.
Posts: 26,322
Total Cats: 1,919
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
Maybe I suggest a book for you Joe?

http://www.amazon.com/Demonic-How-Li...ds=ann+coulter
Wait, what? I didn't even post in this thread.
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2012, 02:46 AM   #14
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 4,682
Total Cats: 216
Default

This isnt a democracy, its a republic.
Im glad this isnt a democracy or we would be even more fucked, which is an impressive level of fucked considering how ******* fucked we ******* are.
Full_Tilt_Boogie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2012, 03:44 AM   #15
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Anacortes, WA
Posts: 2,476
Total Cats: 114
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie View Post
This isnt a democracy, its a republic.
Im glad this isnt a democracy or we would be even more fucked, which is an impressive level of fucked considering how ******* fucked we ******* are.
While we are indeed a republic the term doesn’t come close to describing our form of government. By definition, republic simply means we don’t have a monarch and government is considered a "public matter" (Latin: res publica), The Type of republic we are is a Liberal Democracy. Republics can also be socialist and not have safeguards for liberty and civil rights again Russia and China are also republics. I prefer living in a republic that is a liberal democracy.
bbundy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2012, 09:21 AM   #16
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,872
Total Cats: 1,790
Default

Lol at Russia and China being Republics.

That's your worst argument to date Bob, but as always, the laugh factor is very very high on the BBundy scale of fun.

That's like saying the Supreme Being of Iran has declared himself a Unicracy.
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2012, 11:18 AM   #17
Moderator
iTrader: (11)
 
sixshooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 15,669
Total Cats: 1,561
Default

The People's Republic of China, the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and the former German Democratic Republic have one important overriding common feature, one party rule. When one party controls all aspects of a government those controlling the party have all of the power, and the rule of law is most often the first casualty (see: Franklin Roosevelt).

Constitutional Republic - Rule by a government whose powers are limited by law or a formal constitution, and conducted by representatives chosen by a vote amongst at least some sections of the populace (Ancient Sparta was in its own terms a republic, though most inhabitants were disenfranchised. The United States is a federal republic).

Democracy - A form of government characterized by the direct vote of the populace for the adoption of laws and policies.

So Bob, do we elect representatives to vote on our behalf or do we as a citizenry vote for the adoption or refutation every law ourselves?

Quote:
Benjamin Franklin, leaving Philadelphia’s constitutional convention in 1787, was approached by a woman who wanted to know what type of government the delegates created.

Answered Franklin: “A republic, madam, if you can keep it.”
So don't argue with me, argue with Ben.
sixshooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2012, 11:27 AM   #18
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,872
Total Cats: 1,790
Default

acutally, we might as well be considered a liberal democracy now, if you look at it objectively.

But those who believe the US is such, also believe that the American and French Revolutions share common ground, which is silly beyond comprehension.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
The People's Republic of China
The Communist Party controls everything. That's the anti-republic.


China is a RINO; Republic in name only.
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2012, 11:32 AM   #19
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,872
Total Cats: 1,790
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Wait, what? I didn't even post in this thread.
I meant Jason. I'm bad at names.
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2012, 01:03 PM   #20
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Anacortes, WA
Posts: 2,476
Total Cats: 114
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
The People's Republic of China, the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and the former German Democratic Republic have one important overriding common feature, one party rule. When one party controls all aspects of a government those controlling the party have all of the power, and the rule of law is most often the first casualty (see: Franklin Roosevelt).

Constitutional Republic - Rule by a government whose powers are limited by law or a formal constitution, and conducted by representatives chosen by a vote amongst at least some sections of the populace (Ancient Sparta was in its own terms a republic, though most inhabitants were disenfranchised. The United States is a federal republic).

Democracy - A form of government characterized by the direct vote of the populace for the adoption of laws and policies.

So Bob, do we elect representatives to vote on our behalf or do we as a citizenry vote for the adoption or refutation every law ourselves?



So don't argue with me, argue with Ben.
We are not a "Democracy" we are a "Liberal Democracy" There is a Difference. Republic is way too broad of term to describe our government. Liberal Democracies typically are Republics that have safeguards to protect individual Liberty of the few from the Tyranny of the masses as with a direct democracy. A representative form of democracy is one of those safeguards, a constitution with a bill of rights is another, along with rule of law, seperation of powers, etc.

This form of government was born out of the 18th century age of enlightenment. Or Age of reason, from Wikapidia “Its purpose was to reform society using reason (rather than tradition, faith and revelation) and advance knowledge through science. It promoted science and intellectual interchange and opposed superstition,[1] intolerance and some abuses by church and state.”

It seems to me many on the right want to go back to the Dark Ages for their form of government. No real central government and feudal lords who in owning all the capital are able to dictate terms of employment and access to societal things we take for granted like infrastructure, education, and social safety nets. And it is also interesting they like to use irrational religion to control peoples behavior and make laws.

Last edited by bbundy; 09-11-2012 at 01:18 PM.
bbundy is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cannot set Base Timing to 10* Elfering MEGAsquirt 50 10-05-2015 09:04 AM
Built 1.6l Engine, 1,820 miles Baxgordum Miata parts for sale/trade 19 09-05-2015 12:42 AM
Stainless oil line trouble BEGI series 3 drewbroo DIY Turbo Discussion 5 10-14-2007 08:58 AM
My IS300 Troubles Newbsauce Insert BS here 5 05-01-2007 07:39 PM
My troubleshooting thread! jayc72 Prefabbed Turbo Kits 3 10-10-2006 11:10 AM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:44 AM.