U.S. to Be World’s Top Oil Producer in 5 Years, Report Says - Page 4 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Current Events, News, Politics Keep the politics here.

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-14-2014, 12:23 PM   #61
Elite Member
iTrader: (2)
 
fooger03's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 4,133
Total Cats: 188
Default

This thread is now relevant to my interests. Subscribed.

http://www.eosenergystorage.com/tech...-and-products/

I'm interested if EOS can bring their claims of high-capacity, low-cost, durable, non-volatile, compact energy storage to the real world. If so, I have a significant quantity of unused crawl-space available in my basement that would make for an ideal storage facility for such a system. I would have to call up the local grid distributor and find out if I could be an electricity supplier. I wonder how much income I could generate by buying electricity at night and selling it back during the day...
fooger03 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2014, 01:23 PM   #62
Junior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 276
Total Cats: 6
Default

Depends on how your local rate structure is set up. As far as I am aware, in my area, I would get paid what the utility charges me for electricity. If I get charged $.08/KWH, they would pay me $.08/KWH for generation (which is a fantastic deal for consumer btw, .08 represents generation costs as well as distribution overhead. so the utility is forced to take a loss on your generation).

If your utility has the same scheme for retail generation, The only way you could make money is if the same applies for your Time of use rates. My utility does not do time of use billing(electricity is the same price for me 24 hours a day), so I would make no money on a scheme using only batteries.

It is theoretically possible you could participate in the wholesale market, the price is much more volatile, so there is more opportunity to make money. The challenge is the significant barriers to entry. typically your ISO would require some form of real time telemetry from you, and there are grid system protection requirements you would be responsible to provide. It is difficult to deal with these costs on such a smalls scale.
Davezorz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2014, 10:01 AM   #63
Elite Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 3,284
Total Cats: 178
Default

Regarding US energy independence, via a reduction in demand for oil imports and an increase in supply of multiple domestic energy sources. Specifically in this case, concentrating solar power (CSP).
Yesterday, BrightSource Energy announced that its Ivanpah project in California's Mojave Desert has reached commercial operations and is starting to deliver power to the grid. With total capacity of 377 MW across its three units, Ivanpah is the world's largest CSP project. Ivanpah nearly doubles the operating CSP capacity in the U.S., and in fact it is the largest solar plant start-up of any kind (either PV or CSP) over the past 12 months. The project, whose construction began in 2010, is jointly owned by privately held BrightSource, NRG Energy, and Google. This news came a day after Wednesday's announcement by SolarReserve, another leading CSP developer, noting that its Crescent Dunes project in the Nevada desert entered the commissioning phase. At 110 MW, what's particularly notable about Crescent Dunes is not as much its scale but rather the fact that it is the world's first utility-scale solar project with integrated molten salt power storage. The storage solution eliminates the need for traditional backup, such as natural gas. The project, whose construction began in 2011, is jointly owned by privately held SolarReserve, the construction company ACS Cobra, and the Spanish bank Santander.
Attached Thumbnails
-steam-blows-900.jpg  
Scrappy Jack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2014, 01:49 PM   #64
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,454
Total Cats: 80
Default

Any ideas how much the per GW-h that thing actually costs vs. natural gas, coal or nuclear?
JasonC SBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2014, 03:04 PM   #65
Boost Pope
Thread Starter
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Delicious and Moist.
Posts: 26,328
Total Cats: 1,926
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
Any ideas how much the per GW-h that thing actually costs vs. natural gas, coal or nuclear?
Not counting the 3,500 acres of federal land that it sits on, Ivanpah cost $2.2 billion to construct and has a rated output of 392 MW gross at a capacity factor of 28.72%, for a projected annual output 985,500 MWh. This translates to a capital cost of $2,232 per MWh/year.

The projected cost (including overruns) to build reactor units 3 & 4 at Plant Vogtle (the first new nuke plants in the US this century) is around $14 billion, and they will have a combined gross output of 2.5 GW, with a capacity factor of nearly 100%, for an annual output of 21,900,000 MWh. This translates to a capital cost of around $650 per MWh/year.

So it costs 3.5x as much up-front to construct a solar plant as it does a nuke plant.


(The French, who have more recent experience than the US in efficiently building new nuke plants, have their costs down to around €4 billion / gigawatt, and the Chinese are under-cutting them by about 40%.)



Actual operating cost for Ivanpah isn't yet known, but reliable estimates comparing it to similar stations say that its will cost around $0.135 per kilowatt-hour to run in the long-term. (source.) This is roughly 5x the average operating, fuel and maintenance cost of a US nuclear reactor on a cents-per-kwh basis (source)

If they manage to get the operating cost of Ivanpah down to the target of $0.06 / kwh, then it will only cost 2.4x as much to operate as a nuclear plant.
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2014, 04:17 PM   #66
Junior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 276
Total Cats: 6
Default

I do not think you are comparing apples to apples Joe. The PPA defines what the utility will pay for the wholesale cost of electricity. This is not really operating cost because it includes markup and profit for the generator.

I would expect that a nuclear station and this solar plant to have similar operating costs.

The solar plant has what I guess is a low pressure (by power plant standards) steam plant and 0 fuel costs. The only ongoing costs associated with it are maintenance and workers wages. Other than the solar boiler, I would bet the replacement parts are inexpensive.

a Nuke plant has huge super-critical steam machinery. And while fuel costs are small, they are still present. When machinery breaks it is hugely expensive to replace (or even move for that matter). The costs of performing upgrades on a nuke station are huge too (god help you if you need to run a new control cable).

So while clearly it is cheaper to build a nuke plant, I would wager that the difference in operating costs would probably come out the same.


On a related note, how much do Californians pay for electricity? Does anyone have on their bill what they pay in $/KWH roughly? Energy in my region is trading at about $43/MWH. the PPA mentioned in the article suggests that they are paying 3 times that for power from Ivanpah. I think my bill is something like 6-8 cents/KWH, which would suggest you guys are paying 18-20.
Davezorz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2014, 05:30 PM   #67
Boost Pope
Thread Starter
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Delicious and Moist.
Posts: 26,328
Total Cats: 1,926
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davezorz View Post
I do not think you are comparing apples to apples Joe. The PPA defines what the utility will pay for the wholesale cost of electricity. This is not really operating cost because it includes markup and profit for the generator.
I provided sources for my data, and I believe that it is a fair comparison. The wholesale cost to purchase electricity is not the same as the true, unsubsidized cost to generate it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Davezorz View Post
I would expect that a nuclear station and this solar plant to have similar operating costs.
As a counterpoint to the points which you made comparing solar plants to nuke:

1: Large solar plants, especially heliostatic plants with lots of moving parts, are extremely maintenance-intensive. There is a very large ongoing labor cost associated with maintaining and operating them, as opposed to a nuke plant which, aside from certain periods of scheduled maintenance, is mostly hands-off in operation.

2: It's necessary to scale said costs according to output. A nuke plant might have 2x - 3x the "real" operating cost of a heliostatic plant, but if it produces 10x the energy output, those costs are amortized down across a much larger base. (The same also holds true for comparing other high-density base load technologies such as coal and hydro to other low-density intermittent generators such as wind and PV solar.)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Davezorz View Post
On a related note, how much do Californians pay for electricity? Does anyone have on their bill what they pay in $/KWH roughly? Energy in my region is trading at about $43/MWH. the PPA mentioned in the article suggests that they are paying 3 times that for power from Ivanpah. I think my bill is something like 6-8 cents/KWH, which would suggest you guys are paying 18-20.
Rather conveniently, I still have access to my old SDG&E account from when I lived in San Diego. Below are two bills, one from Dec 2012 and one from Jul 2013, to show winter and summer rates:





As you can see, the generation cost in Dec 2012 was $0.06379 / kWh, and in July 2013 it was $0.09192 / kWh.
Attached Thumbnails
-sdge-summer.gif   -sdge-winter.gif  
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2014, 08:37 AM   #68
Junior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 276
Total Cats: 6
Default

Interesting, that price is really not too bad. It took a little digging (apparently the California ISO does not seem to post wholesale energy cost data, unlike PJM where I live) but it appears that wholesale cost is only around $50/MWH. This is a lot less than what I was expecting considering the relative cost of everything else in CA vs here is PA.

To illustrate my point though, In the Cal ISO, your nuke plant will be paid between 40 and 50 dollars per MWH, which is only around 3 times the cost of electricity as set by the PPA for the Crescent Dunes plant, not 5. If the price was brought down to $.06/KWH, it would be very competitive strictly from a $/MWH point of view.
Davezorz is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Changing from 460cc to flow force 610cc in diypnp 90 Turbo MEGAsquirt 19 10-19-2015 04:23 PM
Back to Stock Part Out!! Turbo Parts, MS2 Enhanced 01-05, Suspension, and MOAR! StratoBlue1109 Miata parts for sale/trade 16 10-02-2015 10:39 AM
Moroso Air Oil Separator Catch Can Aroundcorner Miata parts for sale/trade 2 10-01-2015 04:20 PM
3rd Time's a Charm...hopefully. zephyrusaurai Meet and Greet 2 09-28-2015 11:59 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:15 AM.