1.6L 2560r record attempt
03-09-2013, 02:13 PM
#664
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Man you need some help. Theres a big difference between being a dick and being plain annoyed... Read the ******* posts dude and leave the quotes to the movie stars.
Your original statement is wrong.
There is 2 different sensors, theres flex fuel sensor and a regular wideband sensor that we use for gasoline. They both display different numbers. They both are calibrated to read different stuff. That is why you dont tune for 8.5:1 on e85 using a gasoline sensor calibrated for gasoline afr readings.
You can use them for the wrong fuel however they will output the wrong results. The common thing to do is use the gasoline sensor and tune for 12-11.5 because if you were to use the correct flex fuel sensor that would show ~8.5:1
To clear up your confusion on the LC1.. the controller is programmable. It tells the gauge what to show you. In other words it still uses the gasoline calibration however then changes the numbers so on the gauge they are displayed using the flex fuel sensor scale.
You take the 2 sensors, one is the gasoline wideband and the other one is the flex fuel sensor and you tune E85 for the correct afr in boost... the gasoline wideband would show 11.5-12 and the flex fuel sensor would show you 8-8.5.
Is this clear enough?
Your original statement is wrong.
There is 2 different sensors, theres flex fuel sensor and a regular wideband sensor that we use for gasoline. They both display different numbers. They both are calibrated to read different stuff. That is why you dont tune for 8.5:1 on e85 using a gasoline sensor calibrated for gasoline afr readings.
You can use them for the wrong fuel however they will output the wrong results. The common thing to do is use the gasoline sensor and tune for 12-11.5 because if you were to use the correct flex fuel sensor that would show ~8.5:1
To clear up your confusion on the LC1.. the controller is programmable. It tells the gauge what to show you. In other words it still uses the gasoline calibration however then changes the numbers so on the gauge they are displayed using the flex fuel sensor scale.
You take the 2 sensors, one is the gasoline wideband and the other one is the flex fuel sensor and you tune E85 for the correct afr in boost... the gasoline wideband would show 11.5-12 and the flex fuel sensor would show you 8-8.5.
Is this clear enough?
I'm running a hydra with a fuel sensor and a SINGLE as in ONE Bosch wideband O2 sensor. the fuel sensor tells the hydra what fuel I'm running and hydra picks the correct fuel table to use, both tables have afr as % of lambda, I don't know what the **** you're thinking but no way in hell do you need two sensors to run both gasoline and E85 on the same engine.
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03-09-2013, 02:16 PM
#665
oh yeah it's clear but wrong as ****. your wideband O2 sensor should be connected to your ems and not an external controller (you can't set target afr's or build tables with just a controller). as Dann pointed out the sensor outputs a lambda reading to your ems or controller. Obviously Dann knows what he's doing so I'm sure he'll be fine
I'm running a hydra with a fuel sensor and a SINGLE as in ONE Bosch wideband O2 sensor. the fuel sensor tells the hydra what fuel I'm running and hydra picks the correct fuel table to use, both tables have afr as % of lambda, I don't know what the **** you're thinking but no way in hell do you need two sensors to run both gasoline and E85 on the same engine.
I'm running a hydra with a fuel sensor and a SINGLE as in ONE Bosch wideband O2 sensor. the fuel sensor tells the hydra what fuel I'm running and hydra picks the correct fuel table to use, both tables have afr as % of lambda, I don't know what the **** you're thinking but no way in hell do you need two sensors to run both gasoline and E85 on the same engine.
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03-09-2013, 02:37 PM
#666
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That is not at all what he said. You need to improve your reading comprehension. He said the exact same thing that you just said. An LC-1 feeds to a controller which feeds to the EMS. He said you can run both fuels with one sensor but on an LC-1 if you program it for gasoline it will show you gasoline AFR's for E85. i.e. if you are actually running stoich on the E85 it would show 14.7 on the guage because it is showing it like it was gasoline.
My reading comprehension is just fine.
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03-09-2013, 02:40 PM
#667
You can use them for the wrong fuel however they will output the wrong results. The common thing to do is use the gasoline sensor and tune for 12-11.5 because if you were to use the correct flex fuel sensor that would show ~8.5:1
You take the 2 sensors, one is the gasoline wideband and the other one is the flex fuel sensor and you tune E85 for the correct afr in boost... the gasoline wideband would show 11.5-12 and the flex fuel sensor would show you 8-8.5.
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03-09-2013, 02:53 PM
#668
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Jim
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03-09-2013, 02:58 PM
#669
From the way I am reading it, 88a is talking about the fact that most people just leave the LC-1 programmed to show gasoline AFR's in relation to stoich and tune it that way.
A flex fuel sensor in my understanding would only really be useful if you were mixing fuels with different octanes and you needed your timing map to compensate for the resulting octane on its own. This is the only part of his argument that confuses me.
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03-09-2013, 05:09 PM
#670
On another note. If you tuned for 11.5-12 (gauge number) you'd be running 7.7-8 (e85). You could easily tune into the low 13's safely (gauge number). the magic of e85. From the math unless i'm horribly off and have been time to time. You are pretty safe anywhere between 10.5-13.5 or so (gauge wise).
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03-09-2013, 06:06 PM
#672
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Im going to break it down.
Firstly this last argument, then the misconceptions about the car this thread is about.
WBo2 sensors go like this.
o2 sensor-Lambda reading>o2 controller-conversion to chosen fuel AFR>ECU/guage- lambda displayed in chosen fuels afr.
Flex fuel sensor- tests % of ethanol in fuel for blending flex maps.
HOW E85 TUNING IS TYPICALLY DONE.
Most people who tune E85 already have experience tuning gasoline.
They have remembered that 14.7 is stoich, higher is lean and only ok for cruise, 13:1 at the leanest at 100kpa and below 11.5 is where you want to be at full boost.
The easiest way to swap to E85 tuning is simply to leave the o2 controller setting displaying gasoline AFRs (14.7 as stoich) and then remember that you can go about 1 point leaner everywhere safely (12.5 in boost, 16-17:1 in cruise).
The actual AFR absolutely ISNT 12.5:1 in boost, it is simply lambda multiplied by 14.7. Its actually in the 7s or 8s however relearning AFRs while tuning a critical car is harder than simply running gasoline DISPLAYED afrs a bit leaner.
Dann
Firstly this last argument, then the misconceptions about the car this thread is about.
WBo2 sensors go like this.
o2 sensor-Lambda reading>o2 controller-conversion to chosen fuel AFR>ECU/guage- lambda displayed in chosen fuels afr.
Flex fuel sensor- tests % of ethanol in fuel for blending flex maps.
HOW E85 TUNING IS TYPICALLY DONE.
Most people who tune E85 already have experience tuning gasoline.
They have remembered that 14.7 is stoich, higher is lean and only ok for cruise, 13:1 at the leanest at 100kpa and below 11.5 is where you want to be at full boost.
The easiest way to swap to E85 tuning is simply to leave the o2 controller setting displaying gasoline AFRs (14.7 as stoich) and then remember that you can go about 1 point leaner everywhere safely (12.5 in boost, 16-17:1 in cruise).
The actual AFR absolutely ISNT 12.5:1 in boost, it is simply lambda multiplied by 14.7. Its actually in the 7s or 8s however relearning AFRs while tuning a critical car is harder than simply running gasoline DISPLAYED afrs a bit leaner.
Dann
Last edited by nitrodann; 03-09-2013 at 06:23 PM.
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03-09-2013, 06:15 PM
#673
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Continuing on..
THIS CAR
Was tuned last time with a different setup, using a combination of an LC1 and the boost section of the map was tuned with the shop sniffer WBo2.
My LC1 has been destroyed so FOR NOW, the car has no wideband in it.
The datalogs I posted from MS2 have no o2 sensor input, ignore the o2 for those.
The 325hp run has a wiggle at the end of AFRs, this wiggle has been cleaned up inline with the rest of the map already, please ignore it.
The 325hp was made at a safe DISPLAYED GASOLINE AFR of 11.8, which is plenty safe for an E85 car. The clean up of the wiggle at the end increased HP at that point and doesnt affect peak hp, because its at a different rpm, however the runs we did when fixing this all were below 325 (322, 324 etc) which is why I have showed the run with the AFR wiggle at the end.
The car has a variable TPS however it has recently failed and is not reading correctly.
Therefor the tune does not use TPS for ANY part of it right now.
Please tell me where I can purchase a good quality variable TPS online so I can fit it along with the WBo2 sensor which is in the mail and then go and tune the car properly, like I said I would do.
Also if anyone has some ideas I can try WHILE tuning to get the car to spool earlier id like that. Id like to get a solid tune in a day because the car is an hours drive away, Ill street tune, its in a small town with active highway patrol, you have seen the car, its not exactly police/fine/defect/abuse friendly.
Absolutely spot on.
Because I can street tune this car, money was saved by only tuning in boost on the dyno. I will fit a WBo2 and tune the car on the street.
On the dyno absolutely no tuning was checked or attempted below 7psi/3500rpm. As a result the start of the dyno pull has a huge wierd inflection, this was just an attempt while I was at the dyno to get it to spool without the lower and further left parts of the map being touched.
All of this will be tuned soon.
Dann
THIS CAR
Was tuned last time with a different setup, using a combination of an LC1 and the boost section of the map was tuned with the shop sniffer WBo2.
My LC1 has been destroyed so FOR NOW, the car has no wideband in it.
The datalogs I posted from MS2 have no o2 sensor input, ignore the o2 for those.
The 325hp run has a wiggle at the end of AFRs, this wiggle has been cleaned up inline with the rest of the map already, please ignore it.
The 325hp was made at a safe DISPLAYED GASOLINE AFR of 11.8, which is plenty safe for an E85 car. The clean up of the wiggle at the end increased HP at that point and doesnt affect peak hp, because its at a different rpm, however the runs we did when fixing this all were below 325 (322, 324 etc) which is why I have showed the run with the AFR wiggle at the end.
The car has a variable TPS however it has recently failed and is not reading correctly.
Therefor the tune does not use TPS for ANY part of it right now.
Please tell me where I can purchase a good quality variable TPS online so I can fit it along with the WBo2 sensor which is in the mail and then go and tune the car properly, like I said I would do.
Also if anyone has some ideas I can try WHILE tuning to get the car to spool earlier id like that. Id like to get a solid tune in a day because the car is an hours drive away, Ill street tune, its in a small town with active highway patrol, you have seen the car, its not exactly police/fine/defect/abuse friendly.
Because I can street tune this car, money was saved by only tuning in boost on the dyno. I will fit a WBo2 and tune the car on the street.
On the dyno absolutely no tuning was checked or attempted below 7psi/3500rpm. As a result the start of the dyno pull has a huge wierd inflection, this was just an attempt while I was at the dyno to get it to spool without the lower and further left parts of the map being touched.
All of this will be tuned soon.
Dann
Last edited by nitrodann; 03-09-2013 at 06:31 PM.
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03-09-2013, 06:54 PM
#678
on a helpful note or an attempt to be helpful. is this what you're looking for dan part #B6S8-18-911 it is a tps off an automatic miata or....
Ford Escort 91-96
Kia Sephia 94-95
Mazda 323 90-94
Mazda Miata 90-93
Mazda MX-3 92-93
Mazda Protege 90-94
Mercury Tracer 91-96
It has 4 pins instead of 3. Once upon a time I read somewhere on here where someone wired it into a standard transmission miata harness. but it is vtps
Ford Escort 91-96
Kia Sephia 94-95
Mazda 323 90-94
Mazda Miata 90-93
Mazda MX-3 92-93
Mazda Protege 90-94
Mercury Tracer 91-96
It has 4 pins instead of 3. Once upon a time I read somewhere on here where someone wired it into a standard transmission miata harness. but it is vtps
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03-09-2013, 07:09 PM
#680
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Newcastle, Australia
Posts: 2,826
Total Cats: 67
on a helpful note or an attempt to be helpful. is this what you're looking for dan part #B6S8-18-911 it is a tps off an automatic miata or....
Ford Escort 91-96
Kia Sephia 94-95
Mazda 323 90-94
Mazda Miata 90-93
Mazda MX-3 92-93
Mazda Protege 90-94
Mercury Tracer 91-96
It has 4 pins instead of 3. Once upon a time I read somewhere on here where someone wired it into a standard transmission miata harness. but it is vtps
Ford Escort 91-96
Kia Sephia 94-95
Mazda 323 90-94
Mazda Miata 90-93
Mazda MX-3 92-93
Mazda Protege 90-94
Mercury Tracer 91-96
It has 4 pins instead of 3. Once upon a time I read somewhere on here where someone wired it into a standard transmission miata harness. but it is vtps
Dann
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