1.6L 2560r record attempt - Page 34 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


DIY Turbo Discussion greddy on a 1.8? homebrew kit?

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 03-09-2013, 12:35 PM   #661
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 4,685
Total Cats: 216
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by triple88a View Post
Man u like the Fae of Australia
not until things like this happen

Attached Thumbnails
1.6L 2560r record attempt-fae_prog-1_zps8b1d067d.jpg  
Full_Tilt_Boogie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2013, 01:19 PM   #662
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,892
Total Cats: 1,792
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
Lambda of 0.85 isnt lean for e85. Normally you tune e85 learner than 93 for more power and torque.
okay i had it backwards i suppose. I dont play with e85.
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2013, 02:35 PM   #663
Moderator
iTrader: (11)
 
sixshooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 15,679
Total Cats: 1,561
Default

Fae couldn't figure out how to put his transmission back in for a week. And Dann actually did a dyno.
sixshooter is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2013, 03:13 PM   #664
I'm Miserable!
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 135
Total Cats: -23
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by triple88a View Post
Man you need some help. Theres a big difference between being a dick and being plain annoyed... Read the ******* posts dude and leave the quotes to the movie stars.

Your original statement is wrong.

There is 2 different sensors, theres flex fuel sensor and a regular wideband sensor that we use for gasoline. They both display different numbers. They both are calibrated to read different stuff. That is why you dont tune for 8.5:1 on e85 using a gasoline sensor calibrated for gasoline afr readings.

You can use them for the wrong fuel however they will output the wrong results. The common thing to do is use the gasoline sensor and tune for 12-11.5 because if you were to use the correct flex fuel sensor that would show ~8.5:1

To clear up your confusion on the LC1.. the controller is programmable. It tells the gauge what to show you. In other words it still uses the gasoline calibration however then changes the numbers so on the gauge they are displayed using the flex fuel sensor scale.

You take the 2 sensors, one is the gasoline wideband and the other one is the flex fuel sensor and you tune E85 for the correct afr in boost... the gasoline wideband would show 11.5-12 and the flex fuel sensor would show you 8-8.5.

Is this clear enough?
oh yeah it's clear but wrong as ****. your wideband O2 sensor should be connected to your ems and not an external controller (you can't set target afr's or build tables with just a controller). as Dann pointed out the sensor outputs a lambda reading to your ems. Obviously Dann knows what he's doing so I'm sure he'll be fine

I'm running a hydra with a fuel sensor and a SINGLE as in ONE Bosch wideband O2 sensor. the fuel sensor tells the hydra what fuel I'm running and hydra picks the correct fuel table to use, both tables have afr as % of lambda, I don't know what the **** you're thinking but no way in hell do you need two sensors to run both gasoline and E85 on the same engine.
jimj64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2013, 03:16 PM   #665
Elite Member
iTrader: (8)
 
Ryan_G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 2,579
Total Cats: 155
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimj64 View Post
oh yeah it's clear but wrong as ****. your wideband O2 sensor should be connected to your ems and not an external controller (you can't set target afr's or build tables with just a controller). as Dann pointed out the sensor outputs a lambda reading to your ems or controller. Obviously Dann knows what he's doing so I'm sure he'll be fine

I'm running a hydra with a fuel sensor and a SINGLE as in ONE Bosch wideband O2 sensor. the fuel sensor tells the hydra what fuel I'm running and hydra picks the correct fuel table to use, both tables have afr as % of lambda, I don't know what the **** you're thinking but no way in hell do you need two sensors to run both gasoline and E85 on the same engine.
That is not at all what he said. You need to improve your reading comprehension. He said the exact same thing that you just said. An LC-1 feeds to a controller which feeds to the EMS. He said you can run both fuels with one sensor but on an LC-1 if you program it for gasoline it will show you gasoline AFR's for E85. i.e. if you are actually running stoich on the E85 it would show 14.7 on the guage because it is showing it like it was gasoline.
Ryan_G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2013, 03:37 PM   #666
I'm Miserable!
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 135
Total Cats: -23
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_G View Post
That is not at all what he said. You need to improve your reading comprehension. He said the exact same thing that you just said. An LC-1 feeds to a controller which feeds to the EMS. He said you can run both fuels with one sensor but on an LC-1 if you program it for gasoline it will show you gasoline AFR's for E85. i.e. if you are actually running stoich on the E85 it would show 14.7 on the guage because it is showing it like it was gasoline.
Ryan, you obviously missed the part where he said "you need two different sensors, one for flex fuel one for gasoline"

My reading comprehension is just fine.
jimj64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2013, 03:40 PM   #667
Elite Member
iTrader: (8)
 
Ryan_G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 2,579
Total Cats: 155
Default

Quote:
You can use them for the wrong fuel however they will output the wrong results. The common thing to do is use the gasoline sensor and tune for 12-11.5 because if you were to use the correct flex fuel sensor that would show ~8.5:1
In this next part he is just talking about how it would work if you used two different sensors. He is not claiming that you have to do it this way.

Quote:
You take the 2 sensors, one is the gasoline wideband and the other one is the flex fuel sensor and you tune E85 for the correct afr in boost... the gasoline wideband would show 11.5-12 and the flex fuel sensor would show you 8-8.5.
Ryan_G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2013, 03:53 PM   #668
I'm Miserable!
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 135
Total Cats: -23
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_G View Post
In this next part he is just talking about how it would work if you used two different sensors. He is not claiming that you have to do it this way.
Ok, let's try this, show me the part numbers for the "flex fuel" sensor and the "gas" sensor that 88a is referring to. if you can't find it then just admit he's full of **** and talking through his hat.

Jim
jimj64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2013, 03:58 PM   #669
Elite Member
iTrader: (8)
 
Ryan_G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 2,579
Total Cats: 155
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimj64 View Post
Ok, let's try this, show me the part numbers for the "flex fuel" sensor and the "gas" sensor that 88a is referring to. if you can't find it then just admit he's full of **** and talking through his hat.

Jim
While I have heard of a flex fuel sensor I do not know the part number. However, the "gasoline" sensor is really not a different sensor just for gasoline it is just how the controller for the LC-1 is programmed to display the information. I think this is where the miscommunication is taking place.

From the way I am reading it, 88a is talking about the fact that most people just leave the LC-1 programmed to show gasoline AFR's in relation to stoich and tune it that way.

A flex fuel sensor in my understanding would only really be useful if you were mixing fuels with different octanes and you needed your timing map to compensate for the resulting octane on its own. This is the only part of his argument that confuses me.
Ryan_G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2013, 06:09 PM   #670
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 889
Total Cats: 55
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimj64 View Post
Ok, let's try this, show me the part numbers for the "flex fuel" sensor and the "gas" sensor that 88a is referring to. if you can't find it then just admit he's full of **** and talking through his hat.

Jim
First of all you are annoying as hell. I wish you were arguing with brain again so he could ban you some more.

On another note. If you tuned for 11.5-12 (gauge number) you'd be running 7.7-8 (e85). You could easily tune into the low 13's safely (gauge number). the magic of e85. From the math unless i'm horribly off and have been time to time. You are pretty safe anywhere between 10.5-13.5 or so (gauge wise).
krissetsfire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2013, 06:49 PM   #671
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,196
Total Cats: 2,583
Default

10.5 on the gauge with e85 is pig rich. 13.5 is lean. 11-12.5 is the range IMO
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2013, 07:06 PM   #672
Elite Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Newcastle, Australia
Posts: 2,640
Total Cats: 25
Default

Im going to break it down.

Firstly this last argument, then the misconceptions about the car this thread is about.

WBo2 sensors go like this.

o2 sensor-Lambda reading>o2 controller-conversion to chosen fuel AFR>ECU/guage- lambda displayed in chosen fuels afr.

Flex fuel sensor- tests % of ethanol in fuel for blending flex maps.

HOW E85 TUNING IS TYPICALLY DONE.

Most people who tune E85 already have experience tuning gasoline.
They have remembered that 14.7 is stoich, higher is lean and only ok for cruise, 13:1 at the leanest at 100kpa and below 11.5 is where you want to be at full boost.
The easiest way to swap to E85 tuning is simply to leave the o2 controller setting displaying gasoline AFRs (14.7 as stoich) and then remember that you can go about 1 point leaner everywhere safely (12.5 in boost, 16-17:1 in cruise).
The actual AFR absolutely ISNT 12.5:1 in boost, it is simply lambda multiplied by 14.7. Its actually in the 7s or 8s however relearning AFRs while tuning a critical car is harder than simply running gasoline DISPLAYED afrs a bit leaner.

Dann

Last edited by nitrodann; 03-09-2013 at 07:23 PM.
nitrodann is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2013, 07:15 PM   #673
Elite Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Newcastle, Australia
Posts: 2,640
Total Cats: 25
Default

Continuing on..

THIS CAR

Was tuned last time with a different setup, using a combination of an LC1 and the boost section of the map was tuned with the shop sniffer WBo2.

My LC1 has been destroyed so FOR NOW, the car has no wideband in it.

The datalogs I posted from MS2 have no o2 sensor input, ignore the o2 for those.

The 325hp run has a wiggle at the end of AFRs, this wiggle has been cleaned up inline with the rest of the map already, please ignore it.
The 325hp was made at a safe DISPLAYED GASOLINE AFR of 11.8, which is plenty safe for an E85 car. The clean up of the wiggle at the end increased HP at that point and doesnt affect peak hp, because its at a different rpm, however the runs we did when fixing this all were below 325 (322, 324 etc) which is why I have showed the run with the AFR wiggle at the end.

The car has a variable TPS however it has recently failed and is not reading correctly.

Therefor the tune does not use TPS for ANY part of it right now.

Please tell me where I can purchase a good quality variable TPS online so I can fit it along with the WBo2 sensor which is in the mail and then go and tune the car properly, like I said I would do.

Also if anyone has some ideas I can try WHILE tuning to get the car to spool earlier id like that. Id like to get a solid tune in a day because the car is an hours drive away, Ill street tune, its in a small town with active highway patrol, you have seen the car, its not exactly police/fine/defect/abuse friendly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
10.5 on the gauge with e85 is pig rich. 13.5 is lean. 11-12.5 is the range IMO
Absolutely spot on.
Because I can street tune this car, money was saved by only tuning in boost on the dyno. I will fit a WBo2 and tune the car on the street.
On the dyno absolutely no tuning was checked or attempted below 7psi/3500rpm. As a result the start of the dyno pull has a huge wierd inflection, this was just an attempt while I was at the dyno to get it to spool without the lower and further left parts of the map being touched.

All of this will be tuned soon.

Dann

Last edited by nitrodann; 03-09-2013 at 07:31 PM.
nitrodann is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2013, 07:39 PM   #674
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 889
Total Cats: 55
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
10.5 on the gauge with e85 is pig rich. 13.5 is lean. 11-12.5 is the range IMO
I agree with this statement as well. Merely listed that large range as it includes idle and cruise. Mathematically they are safe numbers. In practice the whole rage is not optimal.
krissetsfire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2013, 07:46 PM   #675
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,892
Total Cats: 1,792
Default

continuing on is redundant.
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2013, 07:50 PM   #676
Elite Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Newcastle, Australia
Posts: 2,640
Total Cats: 25
Default



EDIT: Yep.

Dann
nitrodann is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2013, 07:51 PM   #677
Elite Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Newcastle, Australia
Posts: 2,640
Total Cats: 25
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
continuing on is redundant.
Comment aimed at who and reffering to what?

Dann
nitrodann is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2013, 07:54 PM   #678
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 889
Total Cats: 55
Default

on a helpful note or an attempt to be helpful. is this what you're looking for dan part #B6S8-18-911 it is a tps off an automatic miata or....

Ford Escort 91-96
Kia Sephia 94-95
Mazda 323 90-94
Mazda Miata 90-93
Mazda MX-3 92-93
Mazda Protege 90-94
Mercury Tracer 91-96

It has 4 pins instead of 3. Once upon a time I read somewhere on here where someone wired it into a standard transmission miata harness. but it is vtps
krissetsfire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2013, 07:59 PM   #679
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,892
Total Cats: 1,792
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
Continuing on..

Dann
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
Comment aimed at who and reffering to what?

Dann

Continuing on is redundant.

just continue.





I'm sorry I'm little help when it comes to e85 stuffs.
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2013, 08:09 PM   #680
Elite Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Newcastle, Australia
Posts: 2,640
Total Cats: 25
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by krissetsfire View Post
on a helpful note or an attempt to be helpful. is this what you're looking for dan part #B6S8-18-911 it is a tps off an automatic miata or....

Ford Escort 91-96
Kia Sephia 94-95
Mazda 323 90-94
Mazda Miata 90-93
Mazda MX-3 92-93
Mazda Protege 90-94
Mercury Tracer 91-96

It has 4 pins instead of 3. Once upon a time I read somewhere on here where someone wired it into a standard transmission miata harness. but it is vtps
If those are all the same at the auto miata 1.6L one they dont fit you need to swap the whole throttle body which is smaller I think.

Dann
nitrodann is online now   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Raleigh: Fiberglass headlight scope, 1.6L ECU, AFM, Hardtop latches, more bigmackloud Miata parts for sale/trade 13 09-22-2017 01:34 PM
91 1.6l turbo complete part out. Tony the Tiger Miata parts for sale/trade 63 12-29-2016 03:23 AM
Need help - Stock Balancer and Fastforward overlay pulleys Frank_and_Beans Supercharger Discussion 13 09-12-2016 09:17 PM
UEFI boot help needed mgeoffriau Gaming 38 03-02-2016 04:59 PM
My solution for Oiltemp and Oilpressure input into Megasuirt (MS3) Zaphod MEGAsquirt 41 01-24-2016 01:25 PM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:39 AM.