Further Thread on Oil Supply - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 10-20-2013, 03:26 PM   #1
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Default Further Thread on Oil Supply

I am still accumulating parts for my '99, 200 - 220 WHP eventual with TD04L-13T (like the idea of double the factory offering). Intrigued by the rear plug oil feed (head) vs cold side feed (block), and would like to utilize that clean approach. Apparently Nitrodann an Sturovo are using it, but not on US version cars, and possibly on NA's only? On the last thread, Keith Tanner and Corky Bell were asked to comment on this feed location, but neither did. So, I am re-inviting those knowledgeable gentlemen to give comment on using that (those?) rear ports.
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Old 10-29-2013, 02:58 PM   #2
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Use them both and tie them together! hehe jk

If it was me I would use the closest supply to the pump, but that's me... If you were worried, the best thing to do would be to just tap both individually and get your readings on cold start, hot idle, and WOT and compare. I always like using the block for oil feeds, that's where it's at in most of the factory applications I've used (subaru, nissan, mazda), and where most factory pressure sensors tie into. I figure the factory does it there for a reason.
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Old 10-29-2013, 03:01 PM   #3
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Bottom line - try it and report back. If you fry your head, consider it science.
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Old 10-29-2013, 04:28 PM   #4
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The mazdaspeed has it setup to have both the coolant and oil flow from the ports off the block.
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Old 10-29-2013, 08:09 PM   #5
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I've often wondered why no one has taken an MSM block and checked to see if Mazda did anything differently in the oil passages from the MSM to the BP4W/BP6D.

Surely someone around here has a blown up MSM block at some point.
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Old 10-29-2013, 08:23 PM   #6
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Block and head have bp4w stamped on it, as far as I know the block is nothing special.
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Old 10-29-2013, 08:27 PM   #7
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I have got to have done it 50 times now, and never have had any issues, used in 300whp+ circuit cars and daily drivers, no hastles ever no abnormal cam wear at all, no lifter noise nothing.

Dann
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Old 10-29-2013, 08:35 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
I have got to have done it 50 times now, and never have had any issues, used in 300whp+ circuit cars and daily drivers, no hastles ever no abnormal cam wear at all, no lifter noise nothing.

Dann
50 times? REALLY?

Do you intentionally quadruple all the numbers you ever talk about? You have done 50 miata turbo setups in the past couple years? Gimme a break.

*edit: I've wrenched on about a dozen miata's/turbo setups/tuned megasquirts in the past couple years, so basically......like.......400
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Old 10-29-2013, 08:48 PM   #9
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Um.. Well I undercharged for work for a long time to get enough work to pay my bills and fitted a lot of peoples parts, not just my own setups, if I included both the setups I finished and the ones I have built which included this type of feed, and shipped out to people... yeah probably 50.

I sell a lot of log/downpipe/feed/return setups to people, they take a day to build and ship and its cheap, I have done a hell of a lot.

I have 2 na6 turbo kit builds this week, both use this feed, one engine on a stand, with my feed.. etc

You realise this is my full time job right? (go ahead flame away)

Dann
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Old 10-29-2013, 08:50 PM   #10
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I will get a pressure gauge on the head port and see what it has. Won't get into the numbers war, just report the pressures. Not sure what WOT has to do with oil pressure, but I will get it hot and cold and at varying RPM.
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Old 10-29-2013, 09:16 PM   #11
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Where is Joe with one of his magical oil feed diagrams?

This is the earlier motor with hydraulic lifters, it may even be a 1.6 but IDGAF atm:



Notice that even on this sparse diagram there is a part called "Oil Control Plug" and that to me means a restrictor. (I also find it interesting that the factory turbo oil and coolant feeds are not included in this diagram, but that is not a topic I'm chasing right now.)

Purely speculation but:

I'm willing to bet that the early BP runs a lot more oil VOLUME to the head due to its oil hungry lifters and the 4W/6D is running less oil to the head due to solid lifters. I can see Mazda doing this by putting a smaller oil orifice in the later heads, keeping more oil in the bottom end and/or sending it to the VVT actuator. In the above diagram, the green arrow is pointing out the location where the oil pressure gauge port is located. The small amount of oil we are stealing from the turbo comes from this port BEFORE that restrictor, so we aren't really robbing anything.

Mazda chose to source oil pressure for the VVT actuator not from the head where it would be easy, but from the oil pressure gauge port, before the restrictor. See the logic here? Stealing volume from the valvetrain seems like a really bad idea in the 4W/6D head. I have a BP6D head in the garage that I would be happy to measure this plug if we knew where it was, but I don't have access to an early BP head.
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:57 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
Um.. Well I


You realise this is my full time job right? (go ahead flame away)

Dann
I'm not flaming, I just think you're exaggerating like you always do.
Just a year or two ago you were a complete and utter noob, working as an apprentice mechanic at some general mechanic shop, and "here to learn about miata's"

Now all of a sudden you're claiming to be some master mechanic turbo miata guru. I know you've done a few setups, but I'm almost positive its not 50 or even close to that.

but whatever, I don't care. I just can't stand habitual/compulsive liars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNMakinson View Post
I will get a pressure gauge on the head port and see what it has. Won't get into the numbers war, just report the pressures. Not sure what WOT has to do with oil pressure, but I will get it hot and cold and at varying RPM.
Sounds like a solid start to trying to figure this out.

In for results.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EO2K View Post
Where is Joe with one of his magical oil feed diagrams?

This is the earlier motor with hydraulic lifters, it may even be a 1.6 but IDGAF atm:



Notice that even on this sparse diagram there is a part called "Oil Control Plug" and that to me means a restrictor. (I also find it interesting that the factory turbo oil and coolant feeds are not included in this diagram, but that is not a topic I'm chasing right now.)

Purely speculation but:

I'm willing to bet that the early BP runs a lot more oil VOLUME to the head due to its oil hungry lifters and the 4W/6D is running less oil to the head due to solid lifters. I can see Mazda doing this by putting a smaller oil orifice in the later heads, keeping more oil in the bottom end and/or sending it to the VVT actuator. In the above diagram, the green arrow is pointing out the location where the oil pressure gauge port is located. The small amount of oil we are stealing from the turbo comes from this port BEFORE that restrictor, so we aren't really robbing anything.

Mazda chose to source oil pressure for the VVT actuator not from the head where it would be easy, but from the oil pressure gauge port, before the restrictor. See the logic here? Stealing volume from the valvetrain seems like a really bad idea in the 4W/6D head. I have a BP6D head in the garage that I would be happy to measure this plug if we knew where it was, but I don't have access to an early BP head.
Exactly my point. (and I already stressed this point in the other thread just like this one)

Mazda decided to source the turbo oil feed from the block and not the head for the msm.
Mazda also decided to source the vvt oil feed from the block and not the head on the BP6D and Z3
The two major Miata turbo kit makers all source from the block and not the head as well.

That is a MAJOR hint to me that the head might not be a good place to draw oil for the turbo.

But like I said before: I'm still very much tempted to do it. And actually still might give it a shot. Maybe
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Old 10-29-2013, 11:24 PM   #13
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Im sitting typing from the (admittedly amateur) office in my workshop, that I run, and there is 2x NA6 here, a BP on a stand, a 4agze on a stand, an NC racecar, an a twincharged 4wd, and an AE86. Ill go grab a photo or 3....







Im not allowed to identify the 4wd unfortunately.


Note the oil feed,




Mazda engines and heads etc top right.


Engine for the very first aussie exocet.


Workshirt Im wearing right now.


Take from it what you will. Check the exif if you have to. **** me I dont know why i feel the need to prove this but I do.

Edit number 4 or 5: ... So yeah I have done dozens and dozens and dozens of these feeds, Im pretty sure most if not all on B6's though, but not a single problem so far. Take the info or leave it.

Dann
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Old 10-29-2013, 11:30 PM   #14
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I really like it. I'm just afraid to use it.
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Old 10-29-2013, 11:34 PM   #15
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I don't have enough info for BP's with solid lifters. I really dont. I could check the total flow out of the plug on an NA, and you could do the same test with a BP and compare volume?

Dann
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:36 AM   #16
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Thanks V-dizzle. The series of PM's we exchanged was actually what lead to me to look into all this stuff. I was unaware we had another thread going about this.

I agree, head is super easy but if it doesn't work well, you boned.
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Old 10-30-2013, 08:35 AM   #17
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I just pulled an engine out of an SP (Australian only model with a Garrett turbo, 100 of these cars were sold by Mazda Australia) and it uses the port on the back of the head for the turbo oil feed. They are all VVT engines so they have the beefier oil pump, I haven't heard of any oil related issues with the SP model.
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Old 10-30-2013, 09:30 AM   #18
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Good info thanks, i still miss your old Sab screen name btw..



Dann
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Old 10-30-2013, 01:02 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timk View Post
I just pulled an engine out of an SP (Australian only model with a Garrett turbo, 100 of these cars were sold by Mazda Australia) and it uses the port on the back of the head for the turbo oil feed. They are all VVT engines so they have the beefier oil pump, I haven't heard of any oil related issues with the SP model.
can you PLEASE take a picture or two?

that would be really awesome
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Old 10-30-2013, 01:22 PM   #20
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Does it use the hot or cold side head gallery? Does it use a ball bearing turbo? They use very little oil.
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