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Old 06-17-2014, 07:38 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
you can fix that you know. dynapac gives you to power to hold the car for a second or two before starting the pull and it allows you to control the length of the pull. When I dyno'ed at a spec miata shop on a dynapac they only had it setup for SMs and I really didnt want to make a 25 second long 4th gear pull, with 7 a second hold at the start of the pull. So I think I dropped it to 3 seconds and a 15 second long pull because those were the numbers I pulled out of my *** on the spot.
Well aware. You actually set the settle time, hold time, and rate of RPM rise in RPM/sec. I think the problem is that the rate of acceleration is constant, which is not how a turbo motor accelerates.

That aside, Heikki's car was loaded the exact same way with both turbos. You create a folder for each car in the Dynapack software. When you put the same car back on the dyno, you just open the old folder and load the old settings, otherwise skipping the initial setup.
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Old 06-17-2014, 07:39 PM   #62
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Well aware. You actually set the settle time, hold time, and rate of RPM rise in RPM/sec.
Thats right. Its been a while. But as it stands, you can use those things to load the car up somewhat like the road would with a bit of math.
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Old 06-17-2014, 07:56 PM   #63
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6758 may be a better choice, but IMO the 6258 leaves something to be desired.
I thought your comparison was of a 2560R and an EFR6758?

Nobody's accusing you of impropriety. We're just curious why your customer made 90 less horsepower with the same turbo on a similar motor at the same boost level as other people have.
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Old 06-17-2014, 08:06 PM   #64
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What 6258 setup bends rods?
Off the top of my head, swimming108 and 99mx5 both toasted stock motors with 6258's. These guys are the reason I decided to build a motor before I install my EFR. Soviet has some pretty solid data as well, not sure he's blown anything up ...yet. (other than turbos )

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Who else has done a comparison, same car, same dyno, same motor?
That I cannot say.

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I have complete faith in the dyno results because I was there.
Believe it or not, we have complete faith in you. What Andrew said above is exactly what we are trying to figure out. Something is missing, we are all just gobsmacked as to what happened.
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Old 06-17-2014, 08:09 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
I thought your comparison was of a 2560R and an EFR6758?

Nobody's accusing you of impropriety. We're just curious why your customer made 90 less horsepower with the same turbo on a similar motor at the same boost level as other people have.
Error on my part -- my notes show that Heikki's turbo is a 6758. I can't explain the difference between Heikki's and Soviet's results. I can only present the data that I do have, and that's the GT2560r vs EFR6758 on the same motor, same dyno. I was expecting the EFR to wax the GT.
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Old 06-17-2014, 08:18 PM   #66
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Are you sure he had a GT2560? The spool up from the 2560 looks like a 2560 but after that it looks like a 2860 or a 3071. I'm not just hung up on the poor efr showing, its also the exceptional (record setting?) 2560 showing on a dyno that's infamous for reading stupid low.
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Old 06-17-2014, 08:27 PM   #67
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I'm struggling a little with the 2560R numbers too. 335whp from a 2560R through a VICS intake and log exhaust manifolds is hard to stomach. I've seen 335whp from a 2560R before, but it was on a dyno that reads 8% high, and it came from an FM Stroker breathing through a BEGi S4 manifold.
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Old 06-17-2014, 08:31 PM   #68
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^this. That's way, way out of the park on a 2560. And it's not like it's a new turbo that nobody has tested before.

We do trust you. Something just seems wonky and we want to find the reason why your results are sooooo far different than the hypothesis.
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Old 06-17-2014, 09:08 PM   #69
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Didn't Jeremy from FM do a comparison on a test rig and the efr didn't toast the 2560 (with a 6258 not a 6758). Granted he did use the same tune for them. He used lower boost but the efr didn't crush the 2560 or anything.

I want a magical turbo but I'm still kind of skeptical. But it doesn't matter for me since I have safety parts to update before i worry about it. I also think that one day TSE will release dynos with their finished products and those should be reputable and nice. ALso they have older data with 2871 and others to compare to.
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Old 06-17-2014, 10:08 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
I'm struggling a little with the 2560R numbers too. 335whp from a 2560R through a VICS intake and log exhaust manifolds is hard to stomach. I've seen 335whp from a 2560R before, but it was on a dyno that reads 8% high, and it came from an FM Stroker breathing through a BEGi S4 manifold.
We ran Heikki's car on 2 separate occasions with the 2560r. The first time Heikki was on the dyno, he made 230 at only 8 psi. He then came back and made 330 at ~19 psi. The third time he came back with the EFR.

It's the number the dyno gave 3 or 4 times, consistently. His 2560r made more power than I've ever seen from a 2560r, by 30 hp (10%). He's also got the only completely built engine that I've ever tested with that turbo; everyone else with a built engine has a bigger turbo. Keep in mind he has a p&p head, SUBs, external gate, and a good exhaust.

I could only get 278 out of my BEGi S4 with 2560r and otherwise stock motor. We see ~250 out of BEGi S3s and FMIIs.
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Old 06-17-2014, 11:45 PM   #71
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Access granted. Built BP-Z3, +1.5mm 8.8:1, MS3X EMS; GT2560r (solid) vs EFR 6758 (dotted). Boost was a few psi less than I remembered, but you should get the idea:

This dyno hits 200kpa @ 3700 rpm.
I hit 200kpa @ 3000 rpm.

700 rpm is a pretty significant difference.
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Old 06-18-2014, 12:00 AM   #72
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I did an overlay with my 400whp on pump gas 27psi dyno.
This was on VICS IM, stock throttle body, stock 99 head, 9:1 compression 84mm pistons.

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Old 06-18-2014, 10:26 AM   #73
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Is it just me or are those close enough that it might just have been that heikki wasn't running a fae fae aggressive timing map up top with the 6758? That's one thing that isn't taken into account, I assume the EFR can run more timing up top because it's greater efficiency?

Either way, >300whp in a Lotus 7 is ******* nuts.
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Old 06-18-2014, 10:29 AM   #74
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He would have to be pulling timing like crazy to maintain 20psi to redline yet drop off that hard past 5
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Old 06-18-2014, 10:35 AM   #75
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Maybe you have to with a 2560 because it starts blowing hot air up there, whereas the 6758 is still going strong? I realize I've got no practical experience, I'm just throwing **** out there.
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Old 06-18-2014, 10:37 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thenuge26 View Post
Is it just me or are those close enough that it might just have been that heikki wasn't running a fae fae aggressive timing map up top with the 6758? That's one thing that isn't taken into account, I assume the EFR can run more timing up top because it's greater efficiency?

Either way, >300whp in a Lotus 7 is ******* nuts.
I am pretty sure the guys at DIY who tuned heikki's car know how to tune it properly. You have to also remember that Heikki is also running the locost7 in hill climbs and out on track, it takes a hell of a lot more abuse then Fae's car has ever seen.

On Soviet's 400hp dyno he is also running 27psi. Ben has said they only went up to about 20psi. That difference could easily be the extra power and torque holding flat.

Last edited by shuiend; 06-18-2014 at 10:52 AM.
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Old 06-18-2014, 10:49 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
I am pretty sure the guys at DIY who tuned heikki's car know how to tune it properly. You have to also remember that Heikki is also running the locost7 in hill climbs and out on track, it takes a hell of a lot more abuse then Fae's car has ever seen.
Right, I'm not trying to say the DIY guys didn't tune it well, just that they tuned it properly conservative (because real race car) for the 2560 and ran the same timing map for the 6758, which didn't need to be as conservative.


Anyway A++ thread drift, I don't even remember what the thread was originally about.
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Old 06-18-2014, 10:55 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
He would have to be pulling timing like crazy to maintain 20psi to redline yet drop off that hard past 5
Or just running same timing from 4000 till redline.
Even then, VVT retard at high rpm should help the top end dramatically.
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Old 06-18-2014, 11:31 AM   #79
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See hhammerly's dyno from yesterday for more data.


What I can't wrap my head around is going from record breaking 2560 to really low 6758 numbers.
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Old 06-18-2014, 11:36 AM   #80
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See hhammerly's dyno from yesterday for more data.
Link? I just checked his build thread and did not see it in there, I also checked the dyno section and did not notice it.

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Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
What I can't wrap my head around is going from record breaking 2560 to really low 6758 numbers.
People keep saying it is low 6758 numbers, but does anyone actually have a plot of 20psi with a 6758 on a miata? I think I have only seen lower boost dyno's or allofit dyno's of the 6758 on a miata.
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